All Gold Glove Team

by tbach81 on Aug 22, 2007 12:59 PM EDT

I really found this to be a good read. Im also very surprised the Jeter got as much accolade as he did. Just goes to show that being a good guy and fan favorite can cover up for his defensive prowess .... err lack of. I, like everyone else, was pretty shocked to see Wes Parker named at first base and not Keith "Im a Coke Head" Hernandez. Hernandez was prolly the best fielding firstbaseman Ive ever seen. I also feel that Jim Edmonds in his peak years was probably the best all around defender for outfielders. Some of the balls he got to and plays that he made were just amazing. Its hard to argue him not making the list though with Mays, Clemente and Griffey making it over him. All and all its a good list.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2985977

What does everyone else feel about this list?

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Morgan for 2nd base makes no sense

Alomar and White were better than him at 2nd.

by Bravesin07 on Aug 22, 2007 1:05 PM EDT reply actions

Maz/Ichiro

I agree that Maz and Ichiro should be on that list. Maz was on another level, and not just numbers wise. Clemente's errors were pretty plentiful some years, not that he wasn't very good, but better than Ichiro? Hernandez doesn't sweat it because he has already been to first base and he plans on rounding second tonight around 11 o'clock.

by joemorgansaysdeadredtoomuch on Aug 22, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions

It's always good to work for ESPN

I wonder how many people who voted for Morgan actually saw him play? Comparing players from eras is tough when fans vote. 5 Gold Gloves isn't that many for someone who is the best fielder ever. Morgan has credentials as the best all around 2B ever but not Gold Glover.

by daveyork on Aug 22, 2007 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Morgan over Maz?

How did Morgan beat out Maz?

by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2007 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Sandberg

Makes Joe Blow looks like a little leaguer defensively.

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

by HuskerBob on Aug 23, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions

the list

well, the selection process was kind of a joke. somebody put together a list of candidates and then fans voted on it. as such there are some truly bizarre things going on. barry bonds, for instance, was not even on the ballot, despite his record number of gold gloves for a LF (and more GG's total than many of the OF candidates actually on the ballot). since this was supposedly based on gold glove awards, it's highly dubious.

having said that, most of the choices are totally fine. certainly you can't argue with bench, oz, brooks, or mays. griffey and clemente aren't exactly out of place, but i would probably prefer somebody like barfield, andruw, or even ichiro (just imagine if he had played CF starting in 2001... he's already the #1 defensive CF this year).

morgan was a fine 2B, but nobody can hold a candle to mazeroski, so i dunno what's going on there. maz finished 4th in the voting.

parker is just odd. he got over 50% of the votes at first, but wasn't keith hernandez pretty clearly better, and more popular, and in a bigger market, and on seinfeld? he's KEITH HERNANDEZ. how in the world did he not win?

by jpahk on Aug 22, 2007 1:46 PM EDT reply actions

Ha

Ya I got looking through the list a little more closely and it appears to me that public approval had a big part of the selection process. My biggest case for this is Bonds. He was and still is known and being a great fielding LF'er. He always had a strong arm and good legs to get to a ton of balls. Recently he's declined but thats due to his legs not being what they once were. Same for Maz. Id be willing to bet that outside of his WS Homerun, not too many ppl know too much about him or his defense. Id still rather have Alomar over Maz tho...

Heres my All Time Gold Glove Team
C- J Bench
1B- K Hernandez
2B- R Alomar
SS- C Ripken
3B- B Robinson
LF- B Bonds (and Im no fan of his)
CF- W Mays
RF- R Clemente
P- G Maddox

What do you guys think about my list?

by tbach81 on Aug 22, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions

reality

Bonds was an amazing fielder with a putrid, horrible, feeble, Johnny Damon-eque arm.

In his prime, he couldn't throw out Sid Bream from shallow left without skipping the ball.

by Curtis Pride on Aug 22, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Ahaha...

Brilliant summation.

Also, I put Andruw up there before everyone but Mays. 98-02 was one of the best runs by a fielder ever, and despite recent reports of his demise, he's on pace to accumulate about 450 POs this year. (Jason Stark knows where he can stick it! :-p)

by mraver on Aug 22, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Not that bad

Have you watched the Bream play recently? Barry certainly didn't make his best throw, but I would rank it as above average for a left fielder.

by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2007 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions

+1

I was just about to say he's always had a beebee gun for an arm, he just had a quick release.

"When Justin Upton faces Lincecum, I think Christ might appear in the heavens, and the world will end." -JakeFree

by JT12340 on Aug 23, 2007 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions

I think...

That Alomar is almost like Jeter as a fielder. He was above avergae (slightly) while Jeter is in fact below average most of the time but, its the same thing. . . I like Alomar...he's my favorite...he makes a lot of pretty plays...hes the GREATEST WHO EVER LIVED!!!

Here's MY criterion...Jeff kent is remored to have been a terrible 2b his whole career and if you do not make more plays than him let alone A LOT MORE PLAYS like Alomar doesnt and Mazeroski does then you are not the greatest 2b of All-Time

Alomar... real good hands...turned DP well...Range? WAY, WAY overated...just like Jeter's

by casejud on Aug 22, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Brooksie

Brooksie had great range to the line, but does anyone remember his having great range to his left? Is it possible Belanger covered the hole so well that Brooksie cheated the line?

Has anyone noticed how far off the line David Bell plays, in contrast?

by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2007 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions

Well...

having Ripken as your SS on a list of all-time SS gloves is moronic with guys like Ozzie, Omar, & Maz out there. Yuck, Larkin and many others were better than Ripken with a glove. Just yuck.

by Havok1517 on Aug 22, 2007 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Parker and Morgan

Wes Parker and Joe Morgan make it a pretty eclectic list. Either you go for obscure guys with great fielding numbers (Parker) or you go for popular household names (Morgan). Very odd to see both types of guys on the same list.

by DavidFoss on Aug 22, 2007 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Jim Kaat

Should be on the team.

cmathewson

by cmathewson on Aug 22, 2007 2:37 PM EDT reply actions

+1

Didn't he win like 16 gold gloves?

by strums on Aug 22, 2007 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes

16 consecutive gold gloves. He was the Brooks Robinson of pitchers.

cmathewson

by cmathewson on Aug 22, 2007 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions

pitcher fielding

question for you all: do a pitcher's defensive responsibilities include holding runners? you could argue this either way, but i'm inclined to say yes. certainly it's a big part of how we judge catcher defense, but we all know that sometimes the chances of somebody getting caught depend more on the pitcher than the catcher. andy pettitte and mark buehrle, for instance, are harder to run on than any catcher is.

anyway, if you buy the premise that holding runners should count as part of a pitcher's defensive responsibility, then greg maddux doesn't belong anywhere near an all-time gold glove for pitchers. nor mike mussina, who's also got a locker full of actual gold gloves. it should be guys like pettitte, or great fielders who could also hold runners, like kenny rogers.

(of course, there is also a reasonable argument to be made that a pitcher's defensive responsibilities include all aspects of run prevention, first and foremost being... you know, pitching. in which case the gold gloves should go to guys like roger clemens and randy johnson. i don't think that anybody has tried to seriously make this argument, though.)

by jpahk on Aug 22, 2007 2:46 PM EDT reply actions

That's actually an excellent point

Maddog was never any good at holding runners on. Perhaps we should favor someone like Chris Capuano (not him, just someone like him) with an excellent pick-off move?

Still, I've got to think that Maddux has saved many more runs with his glove than he's given up with his long delivery.

by mraver on Aug 22, 2007 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Maddux

Never cared about what the runner was doing. He preferred to concentrate more on the batter than the runner. So I wouldn't put it down to some perception that he couldn't hold the runners, as much as his priority was getting the batter out.

by JFP on Aug 22, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions

holding runners

who cares what he could or couldn't do? shouldn't the discussion be about what he did or didn't do?

by jpahk on Aug 22, 2007 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions

CF

Griffey Jr. making that team is a joke.

Yes he hit lots of homeruns and stole some home runs by playing so deep (and having good leaping ability), but so many balls dropped all around him that he was usually not even above average.

by elricsi on Aug 22, 2007 4:35 PM EDT reply actions

Actually...

I think that comment is the biggest joke. You give no statistical evidence, or even a certain instance of this happening. I watched many, many Mariner games in the early to mid 90s, and I will say that Griffey Jr was one of the best outfielders I ever saw.

"Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young and 11 Tim Lincecums." -uga007

by Boxkutter on Aug 22, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions

The stats

I was at work, so I didn't have all my stuff, but I thought it was well known that Griffey's stats were weak.

From 91 to 99, for his full seasons with the Mariners his Zone Ratings were:

774, 823, 775, 760, 829, 806, 792 and 768.
(League average is the low 800's)

Now unless you think this is some sort of park effect or something, his replacement ripped off ZR's of 890, 914, 920 and 922 in the 4 years after he left. The Mariners went from having team ERA's in the high 4's and low 5's to a team ERA around 4.00 from 2000 to 2003.

His rank (amoung CF) in fielding win shares in those 8 full seasons from 91 to 99 are:

6, 13, 13, 12, 12, 6, 9, 11

He was average at best. All those sportscenter over the fence catches and hitting he did caused him to be the most overrated defensive CF ever.

by elricsi on Aug 22, 2007 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Well....

considering Griffey's last year was the year the Mariners moved from the Kingdome to Safeco, I think the park factor argument is a very strong one.

The Kingdome was (obviously) a domed stadium that was a great place to hit, while Safeco is an open-air field where balls are known to "hang" in the outfield, making outfielder range look pretty spectacular, statistically.

That said, you make a pretty strong case otherwise that Griffey was overrated defensively. It should be noted that he had a very good arm as well, but obviously he never had the range you'd expect from a top centerfielder.

by DrunkIrish on Aug 23, 2007 6:01 AM EDT up reply actions

My team

C-Ivan Rodriguez
1b-Youkilis (just kidding) Keith Hernandez
2B Alomar
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Ozzie Smith/Vizquel
OF Willie Mays
OF Andruw Jones
OF Ichiro
P Maddux

by kofanis0880 on Aug 22, 2007 4:36 PM EDT reply actions

Torii Hunter???

He regularly makes the difficult appear routine, and turns the impossible into spectacular.

by strums on Aug 22, 2007 6:24 PM EDT reply actions

Well...

Clemente is on here because of the hype surrounded by him arm strength. Also, Mays was a great fielder but he was a show boat. I've often heard about Vets saying that Mays would slow down and needlessly dive to showoff or get a rise out of the crowd while other OFs would already be there to make the catch without diving. The famous Mays catch is now a fairly common play you see great modern day CFs make. I've seen Edmonds, Jones, Hunter, and Griffey make it numerous times. In fact, I think Edmonds does it pretty nonchalantly. The best thing about the Mays play was the timely throw and not the catch. But I would take take all of those modern day CFs in their prime over Mays fielding wise.

by Havok1517 on Aug 22, 2007 6:46 PM EDT reply actions

Time

Since players have improved with time, I suspect you are right that other outfielders have surpassed Willie empirically. But in comparison with his peers, Willie was perhaps the greatest outfielder ever (with Tris Speaker perhaps his top challenger).

by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2007 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions

Mays famous catch

was great for the fact that it occurred in a big game, where he was set playing shallow for some reason.

"When Justin Upton faces Lincecum, I think Christ might appear in the heavens, and the world will end." -JakeFree

by JT12340 on Aug 23, 2007 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions

My picks

Based as much on general accounts of fielding ability and statistics against what was the norm at the time as anything else; to the extent I've never seen a guy play myself, I'll put the best I've seen in parenthesis.

C - Pudge
1B - Frank Chance (Keith Hernandez)
2B - Bill Mazeroski (Pokey Reese)
SS - Ozzie Smith
3B - Pie Traynor (Brooks Robinson modern, Scott Rolen that I've seen live)
OF - Willie Mays, Garry Maddox, Ichiro (Griffey Jr. subs for Mays, Jim Edmonds for Maddox of best I've seen live)
P - Trevor Hoffman

Vice-Chairman of the Sonnanstine Underground Railroad

by Brickhaus on Aug 22, 2007 7:26 PM EDT reply actions

Frank Chance, Pie Traynor

Those are some vintage names.

http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/

by lemonjello on Aug 22, 2007 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions

okay

here goes the ALL TIME gold glove list. ALL TIME!

c james tyng (invented catcher's mask in 1877)
1b cap anson
2b johnny evers
3b buck weaver
ss rabbit maranville
of tris speaker
of harry hooper
of dom dimaggio
p ed walsh

by jpahk on Aug 23, 2007 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Dom D

Good one. He probably goes on the list over Ichiro for me.

Rabbit wasn't much of a defender, just a huge showboat. I haven't heard much good about Anson's defense.

Vice-Chairman of the Sonnanstine Underground Railroad

by Brickhaus on Aug 23, 2007 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions

I'd say

They did a better job with this list than they do on an annual basis with the GG awards.
Morgan is by far the biggest joke though.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 22, 2007 8:03 PM EDT reply actions

mine

C Pudge
1b Keith Hernandez
2B Alomar
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Vizquel
OF Devon White
OF Willie Mays
OF Ichiro

by pedrophile on Aug 22, 2007 8:42 PM EDT reply actions

All except White

I like your list, except for White. I thought White was good, but he was not the best of his generation, Jr. Griffey was. I would personally take Torii Hunter over all of them. He makes catches that rival Mays. That catch in the 2002 All Star game was classic Hunter. It was more in right field than center, but Ichiro jogged after it, so Hunter sprinted, lept and robbed Bonds of a home run. I still have a picture of it: Hunter's knees are even with Ichiro's head.

cmathewson

by cmathewson on Aug 23, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions

then you

must have really like mine.

Torii Hunter is arguably the best in the league robbing home-runs. I put #1 in the class of the Gary Matthews Jr., Mike Cameron's, etc., If Griffey is on the list then Hunter should definitely be there too.

But I see the OF has Jones/Mays/Ichiro.

by kofanis0880 on Aug 23, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Matthews

Gary Matthews just isn't that great of a fielder. He made one showstopping play, but he's probably below average in CF.

by limozeen on Aug 23, 2007 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions

twins fan ;)

I know you are a Twins fan. And I grant that Hunter is awesome in the field.

But if you watched White play a lot you would have seen that he was far and away better than Griffey.

I believe he is better than Hunter and I have watched both quite a bit. But they are clsoe.

by pedrophile on Aug 23, 2007 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions

ss

SS- Jeter

Sincerely,
Yankee Fan

Jack Cust is this year's Marcus Thames

by Team Moneyball on Aug 22, 2007 11:17 PM EDT reply actions

1b

1b - Jason Giambi

by mroak89 on Aug 22, 2007 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions

2b

Chuck Knoblauch. He had a cannon.

http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/

by lemonjello on Aug 23, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions

almost forgot

CF - Bernie Williams
2b - Robinson Cano

Jack Cust is this year's Marcus Thames

by Team Moneyball on Aug 23, 2007 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions

2b

Does anybodyhere remember Jose Lind of the Pirates? He can't hit but boy, he was good with the glove.

by LCT on Aug 23, 2007 12:10 AM EDT reply actions

lind

Not only do I remember him, I remember him hurdling Joe Garagiola on the NBC game of the week. Insane.

by whichthat on Aug 23, 2007 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions

wes parker

A lot of the old-timers swear by him; if you read the magazines and books of the time you get the impression he made the position his own. I don't know how much is defensive skill and how much is overrating the one thing he did exceptionally, but I'm less surprised to see him over Hernandez than to see Morgan over Mazeroski.

by whichthat on Aug 23, 2007 1:38 AM EDT reply actions