The future of the prospect catcher...

by dlpme77 on Jun 18, 2007 6:53 PM EDT Comment 38 comments

Interesting conversation I had at my workplace and looking for other opinions. It seems to be that there is a phasing out of the truly power offensive catchers of the late80's-90's. This is mostly due to the strain the catcher endures day in and day out; making it more so they will change positions before making it 'big'.

There seems to be more of an emphasis on defense now at the catcher position more than anything else. Case in point Daric Barton's move as well as Neil Walker's. The last horrible defensive but powerful offensive catcher that came up is Victor Martinez, and some say his offensive prowess is negated by his poor defense. Heck, with all the problems Mauer is having with his legs there are talks of moving him in a few years to 2B or 3B, ala Craig Biggio

So what do you all think? Are the power guys gonna be moved to different positions to preserve their hitting? Are we looking at a decade of .280/15HR types or worse with good defense? Will anyone ever challenge Mike Piazza HR record for catchers?

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Hmm

I don't remember all these great hitters at catcher. There were about 5 catchers who could hit at any given time, and the current trend seems on par with that. Plus, it's not like there weren't power hitters moved off of catcher back then as well - Carlos Delgado and BJ Surhoff jump to mind.

Vice-Chairman of the Sonnanstine Underground Railroad

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2007 6:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Carlos Delgado use to be a catcher?

by NYYLover1000 on Jun 18, 2007 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup

He was converted to 1B in AA I believe.

Vice-Chairman of the Sonnanstine Underground Railroad

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2007 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought he played Catcher in 1994

When he first came up.

by Bravesin07 on Jun 18, 2007 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another moved off catcher

Dale Murphy.

by aCone419 on Jun 18, 2007 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Sweeney

Dunno if he fits the same mold as Delgado, but he has 199 career home runs...

by ajohnst1 on Jun 19, 2007 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Justin Morneau too.....

....then a guy named Mauer came along.

by dkny22 on Jun 19, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

dude

Morneau was a catcher for like 18 games in the GCL. It was never a serious option.

by limozeen on Jun 20, 2007 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I actually think...

the catcher class of Montero, Clement, Suzuki, Salty, and Iannetta are going to be pretty good in a few years. I think all of those guys will be starting catchers on their teams in the coming years. Hank Conger is on his way up and 2007 was a great draft class for catchers (Wieters, Mesaraco, Canham, etc.) who are offensively minded.

by Havok1517 on Jun 18, 2007 7:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed...

I would also add the Cards' Bryan Anderson to that mix.

by Brock20 on Jun 18, 2007 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

anderson

agreed on anderson. no one ever talks about this kid, but he is hitting .315 as a 20 year old in AA after skipping over high-A and last time i saw his throwing stats he was throwing out 56% of baserunners. that is special with the bat and with the arm.

by fewgoodcards on Jun 18, 2007 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Conger will be a lot like McCann I think

Very solid .290-.300 hitter with 15-25 HR power. Wieters is going to be very good, and whoknows maybe that catcher from Asia that the yankees signed could be something.

by Bravesin07 on Jun 18, 2007 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Conger?

Let's see Conger throw out a baserunner before we talk about him as a major league catcher.

by FI on Jun 18, 2007 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reports

All of the reports I've read coming into this year mention him as adequate and improving defensive catcher with a fine arm. I've seen him listed at a pop time of 1.85 (for whatever that's worth). Also, is throwing out baserunners the be all and end all of defensive catching? Look at what's happened to Varitek or Posada lately....

by benzalman on Jun 19, 2007 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

follow-up

Well, his arm was supposed to be his biggest strength behind the plate and it simply hasn't played well at all this year. His other skills behind the plate were widely regarded as "o.k." or "playable" entering this season and there have always been questions about whether or not he'll stay behind the plate because he doesn't have a lot of quickness. So no, throwing out baserunners is not the "be all and end all" of catching. But when your best tool is allowing opposing baserunners to have a 80% success rate when stealing bases, I think there's reason to doubt whether or not he'll reach the major leagues as a catcher.

by FI on Jun 19, 2007 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

where did you hear those POP Times?

That is Pudge/Benito/Alomar Jr. times when they were in their primes. I would have to say those are bogus times for Conger. MLB average is 2.0 and that would put him in an "elite" throwing category.

I have heard the same things you referenced that he is improving and is adequate behind the plate.

by So Cal Bob on Jun 19, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Love/hate Google

http://www.baseballresource.com/player_profile/profile.php?pid=NdB39KKr5FZ104

by cooper7d7 on Jun 19, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's a silly

High School profile piece--not an actual article from a reliable source citing recent activity. All High School stuff gets inflated one way or another.

I bet if you read deeper they will tell us he threw 98 MPH off the mound too.<joking>

Thanks for the link, but I would hope there is fresher piece talking about his defense.

by So Cal Bob on Jun 19, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nit-picking..

...but I'm pretty sure the MLB average is below 2.00.
It's not that rare to read reports of high school guys showing 1.80-1.90

by FI on Jun 19, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

maybe to 3B

but not to 2B.

I was on the field in ST '89 with Benito and Alomar Jr when the had a "contest" and Alomar posted a 1.72 to win. They both averaged about 1.9 from their knees before it was even fashionable to see cathers throw down to 2B from that position. It was an amazing feat to watch with Robby Alomar and Carlos Baerga hooting and hollering as each was receiving the throws.

I played against Pudge in '89 (SAL) and he threw out one of our guys and we had him at 1.86 from the dugout to 2B on that live game attempt.

I can tell you unequivocally that Conger is not even close to their league throwing a baseball.

If that's all the data we have, then I'll stand by my comments until I see something new or see him for myself. Thanks for the diologue and posting some data. Have a good one.

by So Cal Bob on Jun 19, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Teagarden might warrant some notice...

He was a defensive catcher who is putting up some good numbers this year, albeit in the Cal league.

by beastball on Jun 18, 2007 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's also a bit old for the Cal league...

But I agree that he's worth keeping an eye on.

by guru4u on Jun 21, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also I understand he's an unknown prospect

drafted this year by the yanks but he has some really good tools across the board and he seems to have a pretty good ceiling.

by NYYLover1000 on Jun 18, 2007 7:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

And I say all that and forgot to say his name.

His name is Austin Romine

by NYYLover1000 on Jun 18, 2007 7:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Any counterexamples?

One of the best hitting catchers in the league right now, Jorge Posada, was converted from 2B to catcher in the minors. I also know that the Yankees have a couple of minor leaguers who were converted from middle infield to catcher (Cervelli, Gil). Are any other teams doing that?

by Scott Proctor Fan Club on Jun 18, 2007 8:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I know there was talk...

Of Mike Moustakas doing that because he really has a rocket of an arm...but I don't see that happening at all so as not to mess with his bat.

by doublestix on Jun 18, 2007 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hehe

Pedro Feliz

by wildthang on Jun 18, 2007 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Russell Martin

third baseman

by bleedjaxblue on Jun 18, 2007 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

The Devil Rays converted Sergio Pedroza and Mike McCormick (5th round pick 3B from a couple years ago) to catcher. Pedroza's conversion hasn't gone so well - he still DHs more games than he catches, and his offense has gone down the tubes this year. McCormick was a butcher at 3B with a strong arm, and he's been named the first string catcher for the short season squad, so we'll see how that comes along.

Vice-Chairman of the Sonnanstine Underground Railroad

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2007 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

pedroza

he played catcher for CSF but they had a better catcher and he wasnt very good so they moved him to the OF.

by npurcell on Jun 18, 2007 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A's have 3 very good catcher prospects

suzuki who's up in mlb now

landon powell in AA

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Landon%2520Powell&pos=C&sid=milb&a mp;t=p_pbp&pid=445169

Anthony Recker in High A, like Teagarden tearing up CAL league, but 23 yrs old

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Anthony%2520Recker&pos=C&sid=milb& amp;t=p_pbp&pid=489232

by rayver723 on Jun 18, 2007 9:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Indians' catching

Cannot speak for other organizations. Not sure you really know what you are talking about with Victor Martinez who was the top rated defensive catcher in each of his last three minor league stops. Except for a half season of throwing problems, he has been a decent defensive catcher in the majors.

Aside from my disagreement with your premise, the Tribe has three catchers who are strong offensive with varying degrees of defensive competence. Max Ramirez is a work in progress. Matt McBride is excellent defensively and Robbie Alcombrack looks like a younger version of Kelly Shoppach.

I suppose you could be confusing Martinez with Ryan Garko who was not good at all.

by sdtribefan on Jun 19, 2007 2:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Really?

"Except for a half season of throwing problems, he has been a decent defensive catcher in the majors."

You truly believe V-Mart provides decent/average defense behind the dish?

Of all the starting catchers in baseball, which do you think are actually worse than Martinez?

by Bowser on Jun 19, 2007 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sasser

Though not a current major leaguer, Mackey Sasser was a worse defensive catcher than Victor Martinez. Right now maybe Robert Fick is worse.

by JakeFree on Jun 19, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So

if you come up with only one name, doesn't that tell you that he's not a decent defensive catcher, but an awful one?

by Bowser on Jun 19, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Catcher's defense

If you narrowly define a catcher's defense as solely his ability to throw out runners (despite the obvious role of pitcher's in that process), Martinez is probably below average. Although he has thrown out 29% of the runners on him this year. By all accounts, the other aspects of defense he provides are above average, hence his minor-league defensive awards. In more than 4300 innings as a major-league catcher he's only allowed 22 passed balls and 23 errors. His game calling has also been praised.

by APV on Jun 19, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

reputation

I wouldn't be surprised if Vmart will suffer from a bad defensive rep for the rest of his career. Since defense is so hard to measure once a guy gets a label he never loses it no matter what.

The Giants announcers still talk about how great Benji Molina is behind the dish, but his defense has fallen off quite a bit as he's gotten older.

Jack Cust is this year's Marcus Thames

by Team Moneyball on Jun 19, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs