Who's John Buck?

by neutralluke on May 23, 2007 9:14 PM EDT Comment 41 comments

Probably a misleading title, I know John Buck the player, that is to say I don't think the Royals have fallen completely into the black abyss that comes from being a perennial 90 loss team located in Kansas City but honestly, who is this guy?

He has another home run tonight bringing his total to 8 to go with a season line of .306 .405 .620 (!). I mean, this is a guy with close to 3 full seasons of complete futility at the major league level. I know he was once a pretty promising prospect but in his major league career he has only once slugged over .400, he's never batted over .250, and only one time has he even had an obp over .300. Let me see if I can do the math there...hmm carry the one, okay so the R-squared of that equals........not good.

How real is his performance so far this season?

Apologies in advance if this has already been discussed. Yes, I know I could have just used the search feature but I only just thought of that now after having written all this already and I couldn't be bothered to do it anyways.

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Leg kick

Big leg kick shortened his swing, and he has tons of raw power so I'm not surprised to see the HR's. Normally it takes a catcher (OK, studs like Mauer excluded) three years to click offensively.

He's been in the league since July 2004. Honestly - he's not THIS good I don't think, right now he's the best offensive catcher in the game. What's weird though is, not only is he becoming a more complete hitter, but he's also improved his plate discipline dramatically. He still swings at the occasional pitch out of the zone, but it's much more few and far between right now. One theory is that the Royals pitching is more consistent this year, allowing him to focus a little more on offense rather than learning a new pitcher every other night (or catching Burgos).

I dunno - we'll see. I think he could be a Michael Barrett type threat at catcher, with a few less doubles and a few more HR.

That Beltran trade is looking mighty fine right now though!

by doublestix on May 23, 2007 9:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm...

just noticed I essentially copied your post. I guess we're on the same page.

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on May 23, 2007 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was wondering the same thing - he doesn't look

like the same hitter to me! I thought maybe aliens abducted him and replaced him with this clone, LOL! :-) (It doesn't hurt to have the often-struggling Cliff Lee throwing to him either.)

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on May 23, 2007 9:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

lol

Helps to make it a game with the crappy Elarton out there too. :)

by doublestix on May 23, 2007 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It certainly does - Sizemore & Blake both hit

HRs, and Hafner and Peralta weren't far away from HRs themselves, yet Elarton outpitched Lee (ERs at least,) and Lee isn't coming back from shoulder surgery like Elarton is.

Take care and have a great day!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on May 24, 2007 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cliff Lee should go

Adam Miller should take his spot in the rotation.

by Bravesin07 on May 23, 2007 9:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Buck

In general, catchers mature much later than other position players; furthermore, their offensive game tends to be the last aspect that fully develops.

Some have implied that Buck's game has taken the jump this year due to a solid and stable pitching staff. No, KC's pitching staff won't be confused for Boston's, but they are better than in past years and maybe more importantly, there hasn't been a constant roster shuffle. Buck can spend less time worrying about each new guy's pitches and tendencies, and instead can focus on his own game.

I certainly don't think Buck is a legit 1.000+ OPS guy, but he has really evolved into a complete player this year and looks to be making the same jump that Teahen did last year. Remember, Buck was a top prospect in the Houston organization just a few years ago - it looks like it just took him a few years to realize his potential.

That Beltran trade isn't looking too bad after all...

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on May 23, 2007 9:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

catching prospects are sometimes late bloomers

look at LoDuca, Piazza, and Varitek.

by Bravesin07 on May 23, 2007 9:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

piazza

in his first full year in the league at age 24, he won the rookie of the year with a 150 OPS+.

by npurcell on May 23, 2007 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Teahen and Buck

Both hitting over .300

That Beltran trade is looking great considering many thought that both Teahen and Buck were busts.

by adschofield on May 23, 2007 9:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

well

I wouldn't say it's looking "great." Better, maybe. Beltran is still one of the top 5 position players in the bigs, and Teahen and Buck are still fairly middling productive regulars.

by limozeen on May 23, 2007 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nah

It's great. KC traded a rent-a-player (Beltran) for two starters who are playing like upper tier players at their respective positions. Beltran was NOT going to stay in KC.

by doublestix on May 23, 2007 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Royals fans, unite!

All three of us...rallying to defend the Beltran trade. Hilarious.

by ajohnst1 on May 23, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Somewhere

Allard Baird is reading this and smiling.

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on May 23, 2007 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Still

On the Royals, those two are much much more than middling productive regulars. And it's not like the Royals traded Beltran to the Mets on his current 7 year deal...they got Teahen and Buck for a half-season of Beltran.

And Buck, right now, is the best catcher in the league, not a middling regular. Not that it will last, but he has the potential to be one of the better catchers in the league even if he cools off considerably from his current pace. Teahen has an .862 OPS, 6 steals, and 8 outfield assists...there aren't too many RFs I'd take over him right now, either.

by ajohnst1 on May 23, 2007 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Even before this season I would have taken 6 years of Buck and Teahen for 3 months of Carlos Beltran.

If this explosion by Buck is even somewhat real, I can't see how anyone wouldn't view the trade as a great one for the Royals.

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on May 23, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Buck

Raises his average to .313 with a RBI double to right field.

by doublestix on May 23, 2007 10:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

And Gordon

Launched a home run to bring his OPS above .600. Wooo!

by ajohnst1 on May 23, 2007 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Royals

8 wins in our last 10 games (assuming we hold on to win tonight).

by adschofield on May 23, 2007 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This thread is just an excuse...

...for Royals fans to brag!

I would personally like to thank Dave Littlefield for banishing the ghost of Scott Kazmir from Shea Stadium.

by uga007 on May 23, 2007 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup

Pretty much.

by ajohnst1 on May 23, 2007 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

YES!

Come on now, after years of suckitude, we deserve something like this.

by doublestix on May 23, 2007 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh hell yeah baby

by wildthang on May 24, 2007 4:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm../

Years of futility followed by an unprecedented career season...Gil Meche anyone? In old Gilgamesh's defense though, he sucked in a different organization and he did show signs of improvement like an improved K rate in 2006. Still, I think it's funny how "lucky" they're getting (Like Sweeney not being injured) and they still are performing like a mediocre major league team

Hey fish, leave those kids alone!

by The Congo Hammer on May 23, 2007 11:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Sweeney...

Yeah, Sweeney and his 772 OPS have really been carrying us...we might be a better team if Sweeney got hurt b/c then we'd have Billy B. DHing--but that will come soon enough.

by nwroyal on May 24, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beltran trade

I'll reply here because the tabs would bury my responses otherwise.

For a top five in the MLB player, it's disappointing to get what the Royals got. John Buck is not even close to the best catcher in the MLB, and Mark Teahen is a middle-of-the-pack productive 3B or a league-average corner outfielder.

Yeah, Buck and Teahen are better than some compensatory picks, but when you trade a superstar like Beltran, you have to get more than that. Just because the trade isn't going to be as horrible as it once looked doesn't mean it's great.

by limozeen on May 24, 2007 12:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Comp

Big Unit for Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen, and John Halama. I think Beltran for Teahen and Buck (and Mike Wood) was similar in value.

And when you consider that it was patently obvious that KC could not resign Beltran (Seattle had more payroll, but chose to deal Johnson anyway, which IMO helped their negotiating position), I thnk Baird should get credit for pulling a pretty good deal.

by Yakker on May 24, 2007 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Teahen is better than league average

Among OF (any, not just corner OF) in the AL with more than 100 plate appearances so far this season (there are 45 players that meet this specification), Teahen ranks 7th in OPS. 7th out of 45 is quite a bit better than league average, and that's not even taking into account his defense, which has been superb (especially taking into account the fact that he had never played the OF before this season). Now, I know the season is young, and a lot of guys are off to slow starts, but Teahen himself got off to a slow start...and his final numbers are going to be quite a bit better than they are now. So call him league average if you like, but he's not league average. He's a hell of a player.

As for Buck, he'll probably come down a little from his lofty 1.040 OPS...but, in the meantime, he's leading all AL catchers in that category. His improvement with the bat is for real, and he's always been a pretty good defender. He may not be the best catcher in the AL, but I'd be willing to bet he breaks into the top five (behind Posada, Varitek, Martinez, and Mauer).

Again, feel free to disagree, but so far, the numbers show these two as being quite better than league-average role players.

by ajohnst1 on May 24, 2007 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

AL Catchers

I think I'd have Ramon Hernandez ahead of Buck when ranking AL catchers.

by GregJP on May 24, 2007 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

Really? Even when you consider, age, salary, and defensive capabilities? I definitely disagree.

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on May 24, 2007 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hernandez

I think Hernandez is actually a decent defensive catcher, and despite his recent slump with the bat is a very good hitter.

I'd be surprised if Buck's offensive numbers were better than Hernandez's at the end of the year.

by GregJP on May 24, 2007 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I can see how you might, given that Buck's offense has basically come out of nowhere...I can see how a lot of people might think it's a fluke. Trust me, a lot of Royals fans doubted it too. But I think he's for real. And as eazy mentions, there are a lot of reasons to prefer Buck even if Buck ISN'T a 1.000 OPS catcher...even if he slumps to .900 or .850 on the year, I think I'd take him over Hernandez.

Something to think about though; thanks for bringing up that name, I totally forgot about him.

by ajohnst1 on May 24, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

prediction

John Buck's OPS will be less than .850 by the end of the season.

by limozeen on May 24, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Does anyone know

how to tag posts like this for future reference? I don't have a position one way or another on Buck, but there have been a few of these sorts of predictions (some of Dr.B.'s glowing comments on Russ Ortiz and Zito spring to mind, as does Shamus's comment on--I think--Hirsh).

I think it would be fun to collect these somewhere.

by Yakker on May 24, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll take the over

I think it'll be at least over .800, and if you hold me to it, I'll take OVER .850. As long as we don't have any money riding on it ;)

by ajohnst1 on May 24, 2007 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

fine

If I had to predict, I'd say between .740 and .790. I have no faith.

by limozeen on May 24, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

catchers

wait, you forgot jason kendall... sigh.

i'd probably rank buck 5th right now, too, but i wouldn't put varitek ahead of him. johjima is quietly having an excellent season, and he's been consistently decent for two years.

by jpahk on May 24, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Speaking of Kendall

Whatever happened to him? He's got to be the worst starting position player in the big leagues right now...his offense is unbelievably terrible and he can't throw out a runner to save his life.

I forgot about Johjima, but yeah, he's having a good year. Not as good as Buck's, but then, so far, no one's is. If Buck is a top five catcher in the AL...I think the Beltran trade is a damn good one.

by ajohnst1 on May 24, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think

he'll ever be able to hit for average,and nor do I think he will be a big walker, but his pop is real and he does have enough offensive ability to not be a normal light hitting catcher. I think Benito Santiago is a good comp

by Trenchtown on May 24, 2007 1:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Kansas City exemplifies the problem with baseball

not enuf parity.

got a few he-man,stud teams like the royals and bosox

and the unwashed rolle-polle..

loss balancers, Mienk baby-sitters like the Yanks

by dryice on May 24, 2007 8:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Royals did well for what they could get...

Beltran was going on the market, and it didn't seem as if the Royals were going to get anything for him at all (not including the draft pick, but then again who wants a draft pick for Carlos Beltran unless it's a top three pick?) Even then it's a risk. Regardless, most teams that were fringe playoff teams didn't make any solid offers, and the Astros were the only ones who put together some solid prospects for the Royals, including their top position prospect at the time (Buck).

Teahen was from the A's, I believe (not to down play the acquisition either).

Regardless, if Buck develops into a solid offensive catcher and can provide above average defense then the Royals did a solid job. There was no way a small market team like the Royals could have given any sort of contract that either NY team could have offered or better put did offer.

Lincecum is the truth!

by JT12340 on May 26, 2007 4:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs