Boxscore Question

by TexasHeat on May 16, 2007 1:09 PM EDT Comment 19 comments

Guys, I need some help trying figure out earned and unearned runs. I feel I know baseball pretty well, but sometimes I'm just way off trying to figure out what should or should not be an unearned run. Here is an example of the Indians game last night, take a look and let me know what you all think.

Bottom 6th: Cleveland

J. Crain relieved M. Guerrier

T. Hafner safe at first on third baseman N. Punto's fielding error

V. Martinez hit by pitch, T. Hafner to second

J. Peralta grounded out to pitcher, T. Hafner to third, V. Martinez to second

D. Dellucci hit sacrifice fly to center, T. Hafner scored

J. Michaels singled to right center, V. Martinez to third

J. Barfield doubled to deep center, J. Michaels and V. Martinez scored

K. Shoppach singled to right, J. Barfield scored

G. Sizemore homered to deep center, K. Shoppach scored

J. Rincon relieved J. Crain

C. Blake flied out to left

6 runs all unearned, 4 hits, 1 errors

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hmmm

I'd say all were unearned because the fielders maybe made all bad throws.

Though I'm not 100% sure since I didn't see the game.

Personally, I think that the whole earned and unearned run system is garbage anyway.

by yanksfan6129 on May 16, 2007 1:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

ok...

this is what I get out of this.

Hafner reached base on an error. (this SHOULD be out #1).

Peralta grounds out...out #1 (this SHOULD be out #2)

Delluci saf fly...out #2 (this SHOULD be out #3). Hafner scores on this play, but because the inning should be over, this run is unearned and hence, every run scored after this is unearned, as well. This is due to the fact that their should have been 3 outs already..

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't anyone who reaches base on an error and comes around to score considered an unearned run?

by odo31 on May 16, 2007 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re:

If a guy reaches on an error and scores (regardless of outs) he will be an unearned run. Subsequently, any runner than scores after "(actual outs + outs lost to error) = 3" will also be unearned.

That's my general understanding. Someone may be able to cook up an exception to those general rules.

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by natsfan2005 on May 16, 2007 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

bingo

the inning would have been over without the error, thus they are all unearned.

by DeisJJ on May 16, 2007 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes

Interstingly however, had Rincon come in after the Sac Fly and the rest of the inning proceeded exactly the same, while all 6 runs would have been Unearned in the Team Pitching statistics, Rincon would have been charged with 4 earned runs on his personal record because a reliever doesn't get the scoring benefit of any errors committed while the previous pitcher was pitching. The first 4 batters he would have faced would have reached safely and scored so he'd be on the hook for 4 ER despite the fact that no earned runs scored during the inning. Clear?

by Roger on May 16, 2007 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

WoW

now that is some great info. that may clear up a bunch of stuff in the future.

by TexasHeat on May 16, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ya know....

we had this all figured out until you came and stuck your nose into it. Now I am confused!

"Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young and 11 Tim Lincecums." -uga007

by Boxkutter on May 16, 2007 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nope

it wouldn't matter how many relievers come into the game.

by pedrophile on May 16, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OOPS

To clarify:

when a reliever comes in he would in fact be charged with his runs UNLESS his players reach by error OR errors incurred while he was pitching PLUS the number of outs >= 3

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

(i) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs.
Rule 10.16(i) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.16(i) to charge a relief pitcher with earned runs for which such relief pitcher is solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team. For example:
(1) With two out and Peter pitching, Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Baker reaches first base on an error. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie hits a home run, scoring three runs. The official scorer shall charge two unearned runs to Peter, one earned run to Roger and three unearned runs to the team (because the inning should have ended with the third out when Baker batted and an error was committed).
(2) With two out, and Peter pitching, Abel and Baker each reach first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie reaches first base on an error. Daniel hits a home run, scoring four runs. The official scorer shall charge two unearned runs to Peter and two unearned runs to Roger (because the inning should have ended with the third out when Charlie batted and an error was committed).
(3) With none out and Peter pitching, Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Baker reaches first base on an error. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie hits a home run, scoring three runs. Daniel and Edward strike out. Frank reaches first base on an error. George hits a home run, scoring two runs. The official scorer shall charge two runs, one of them earned, to Peter, three runs, one of them earned, to Roger and five runs, two of them earned, to the team (because only Abel and Charlie would have scored in an inning reconstructed without the errors).

by pedrophile on May 16, 2007 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's just what I said

only with the charlies and ables and bakers confusing things. :)

by Roger on May 16, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha

but I didn't have to type anything! Lazyness rules. I just copied from MLB rules site.

by pedrophile on May 16, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who is this Charlie guy?

Seems like he can really hit.

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -Red Barber

by e 6 on May 16, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ahh

now I understand how this happened and hopefully so does TexasHeat.

by yanksfan6129 on May 16, 2007 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

yes

this one might have been too easy to figure out, but it was an easy example to use. Sometimes it just doesnt seem so easy to figure out. I'll keep my head up to see if I can find any others in the days to come.

by TexasHeat on May 16, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It Gets Tricky

When determining if a run would have scored anyways. For example, say a batter reaches first on an infield single and the ball is thrown away so the batter gets to second - with 2 outs. Then the next hitter up hits a double into RF and the runner comes into score. Then the next hitter flies out to end the inning. Is the run earned or unearned?

I'm not sure if there is a rule that covers situations like this - but I know that in certain situations the issue of "whether or not the run would have scored anyways" comes into play - which seems like it has to be subjective. If the runner had been on 1st when the double was hit, would he have scored anyways? Maybe someone can elaborate more on how that situation would be scored...

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by Dfarth on May 16, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Official scorer

My understanding is it comes down to the judgement of the official scorer in those cases. If he feels the error has helped the run score, and the run would not have score otherwise, it would be unearned.

Easier example is a guy gets a single with two outs, but it's misplayed by the outfielder and the batter advances to third base - single and two-base error. The next batter singles, scoring a run. The next batter strikes out. Without the error, the initial baserunner clearly would not have scored from first on the single, so it's unearned.

In your scenario, it's not so obvious, as a guy might be able to score from first on a double, depending on where/how it was hit. So it's just up to the scorer.

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -Red Barber

by e 6 on May 16, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i thought

the rule was that the official scorer never assumes a runner would take an extra base. so the run in your example would be unearned.

here's a weird one. baker is batting with abel on 1st and nobody out. he hits a foul popup which is dropped for an error. given a second chance, baker grounds into a double play. charlie comes up next and hits a home run (dude, charlie can rake).

what now? is the pitcher charged with 2 ER but only 1 R? obviously not, but without the error, more runs would have scored.

by jpahk on May 16, 2007 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Would Guess

That the double play erases negates the error...1R and 1ER would be charged to the pitcher.

I'm not sure about your comment that the official scorer never assumes a runner would take an extra base - I've never heard of that. Even if that is the case it doesn't solve all problems - here's a more difficult example:

Able is on third base with 1 out. Sam comes to bat and hits a grounder to first and the first baseman makes an error - Able scores and Sam is safe at first. The next two batters pop out and the inning is over. Is Able's run earned or not?

I believe it comes down to whether or not the official scorer feels that Able would have scored on the grounder to first...

Gorkys Hernandez is my new favorite player (my tribute to VTTigers)

by Dfarth on May 16, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting questions....

Charlie keeps getting all this Lincecum-esque hype, but don't you think Abel might be the better prospect. Charlie has more power, but Abel always seems to be on base, and has quite a bit of speed to get from 1st to home on a double. Shoot, there was even one time I heard about him advancing from 1st to 3rd on a simple fielding error.

Charlie is really a "swinging for the fences" type of player. I like Abel more. Oh yeah, and who the heck is making this line-up? They have a good OBP guy with speed, followed by the crappy-hitting Baker. Then Charlie? Shouldn't the line-up be re-worked to get Duncan or Edwards into the two-hole?

"Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young and 11 Tim Lincecums." -uga007

by Boxkutter on May 16, 2007 5:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs