Eric Should Probably Not...

by TigerFanInCleveland on Apr 11, 2007 10:49 PM EDT Comment 45 comments

ESPN "analyst" Eric Young was covering his view of who the ideal OF from his experience was - defensively. The piece stemmed from Karl Ravech's statement that Tampa Bay has the best OF in the game, if not simply the best young OF. Eric Young, then, posited the following:

Best LF he's ever seen - Barry Bonds - this was succeeded by shots of Barry throwing out a runner from LF, not hitting a HR. btw Karl was quick to comment that Bonds, "IN HIS PRIME", was a very good fielder, and oh by the way can hit too.

Best RF he's ever seen - Larry Walker

Best CF he's ever seen - Andruw Jones

Okay, I can MAYBE see Jones as the best CF, but I still disagree that Griffey Jr isn't better in his prie. Another story entirely with LF and RF. Walker may have had a pretty good arm, but what makes him any better than Vlad? I think Ichiro is the best RF that the game has seen since Young has been around. The best LF - I don't know. Bonds was OBVIOUSLY a great hitter, but his defense has been good not spectacular. I don't see where Young gets this. Honestly I can't finish this thought but I didn't want the rest to go without others picking up from here. Any thoughts?

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Jones >> Griffey

IMO.

by nyybaseball99 on Apr 11, 2007 10:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1000

Griffey was a great outfielder, of which there are several in the league at a time. MAYBE he stood out a touch more than that early in his career.

Andruw Jones is one of the two or three greatest centerfielders of all time, if not the single best.

It's no contest, really.

by bleedjaxblue on Apr 11, 2007 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Devo

I still prefer Devo. I can't believe Jones was better than him.

It's funny how the long striding type OF don't get the hype that diving guys like Erstad and Edmonds do. They make it look easy so people assume it really was easy.

by pedrophile on Apr 12, 2007 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

CF

Jones vs Edmonds in CF... close to me.

As for RF, it's clearly Ichiro to me. He has the complete package out there.

Also, Vlad is just an arm in RF. He doesn't get to a lot of balls and I've seen him let balls drop a ton.

Rays in '08....

by youALREADYknow on Apr 11, 2007 10:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

vlad

and with Vladdy Daddy you had no clue where his throw was going.

by pedrophile on Apr 11, 2007 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no way

Edmonds and Jones are exact opposits. Edmonds trys to make catches look harder than they really are and Jones makes the toughest plays look easy. I've never seen a player track a ball just so he can dive for it at much as Edmonds. I'm a big fan of him and he makes tons of highlight reel plays. But i don't think its close.

by Metty5 on Apr 12, 2007 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

In his prime, Bonds was a fantastic fielder, incredibly gifted, great range, very solid arm. And Vlad is not a good fielder at all. He's got a great arm, and he doesn't particularly know what to do with it either. Young is actually pretty spot on with those picks. Not sure what you're thinking actually. Walker is also a great pick, he's easily a better fielder than Vlad, that's not even close. Jones is better than Griffey was, even in Griffey's prime.

by andwoo on Apr 11, 2007 11:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ive seen a LOT of good OF's

and I can't argue with Young's picks

Bonds was good enough to play CF in his prime and long after it. If you watch hes STILL a good LF

Jones is great at tracking flies but, Griffey was great too.

What makes Walker a better RF than Vlad. Walker was very natural going back, leaft, right or in, had a great, accurate arm and topped off his skills by being a smart oF as well. From what Ive seen AND the numbers Vladdy had range and a great arm but just isnt as smart in his OF play and is WAY more prone to mistakes. Hes good though but, Walker was GREAT...Ichiro too.

casedog

by casejud on Apr 11, 2007 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I DO watch....

....and Barry Bonds is most definitely NOT still a good leftfielder. He's surprisingly unatrocious considering how poorly he both runs and throws. But, despite that, he's still a liability.

by bleedjaxblue on Apr 11, 2007 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Surprisingly unatrocious

I like that. I actually see that his range and arm have declined but he doesnt make many terrible plays out there. I guess I meant that on the whole hes still "near-average" out there. Kinda like Gary Sheffield was in the middle of his career. He's alright. Ive seen a LOT worse. I say hes just short of being a liability.

casedog

by casejud on Apr 12, 2007 5:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm very drunk and high...

.....but most objective measurements aren't, and they agree with me pretty strongly

by bleedjaxblue on Apr 12, 2007 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lol @

me for reminding other posters its always good to post high.

For some reason its 12:30, I've skipped my class cause of the crappy weather, and I'm dismantling my friends lame argument that Kurt Vonnegut > Hunter S. Thompson while high. They're completely different writers dude.

On this thread:

Bonds was amazing in his prime, and I agree with Bleedjax that he never seems like...disgusting out here even to this day. He makes a few blunders, but otherwise its obvious that the only reason he's not a great OFer to this day is because of age and his knees. He's got tremendous instincts.
Walker >>> Vlad. Vlad is disturbingly bad to watch as an OFer. He takes some horrible angles when he's chasing balls down, and when he does throw it might end up within a mile of its target.
Andruw Jones is the best I've ever seen, but it's not like I've lived half of half a lifetime yet. Edmonds is really underrated here, and I hate saying that (but Cubs fans know they'd love him if he was a Cub). He's very good.
I actually found myself agreeing with Eric Young for the first time since he's joined the rest of Crapfest Tonight. The only reason he still has a chance to be decent is because he isn't as loud and obnoxious as Kruk and the new Hispanic guy.

by SenorGato88 on Apr 12, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Vonnegut

isn't even close to Hunter S.

I didn't think any of his work was as good as either Hells Angels or Fear & Loathing.

Satirists tend to get judged more on what they satire and the negative reaction this garners than on the work itself.

by pedrophile on Apr 12, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh wow...

I meant Thompson >>>> Vonnegut.

Theres no writer who has more influence in the way I think than Thompson. His ability to observe and document a generation so beautifully is unrivaled by every American writer but Fitzgerald.

by SenorGato88 on Apr 12, 2007 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Last Tycoon

was an awesome novel

But if you're talking American novelists don't discount Bukowski.

by pedrophile on Apr 13, 2007 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are wrong

Judging by your comment you obviously don't watch. It is extremely popular to say nowadays (especially for BUMS fans) but Bonds is not a defensive liability. His arm sucks and he is no longer a speed threat but his instincts are so good that he is still an average defender. Certainly not a liability.

by caintastic on Apr 12, 2007 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you are wrong

I do watch. Probably over 100 Giants games a year. But if you'd like to dismiss my opinion (and the opinion of every fielding metric ever invented), fine. But that's because you're a Giants fan, not because I'm a Dodgers fan.

I was trying to be unbiased and admit he wasn't as bad as some people say. His instincts are great, and he manages to get to more balls than you'd think he could, given his balky knees. Though he moves like my grandfather, he still covers ground decently enough to make playing him in the outfield not a joke. casejud called him "still good," and that IS a joke.

The fact is, he has limited range, given his speed and his (quite rightful) unwillingness to go all-out for flyballs (e.g., no diving, caution near the bullpen and around walls, etc) really puts a cap on how good he can be. A good first step (though SURPRISINGLY effective, as I said) only takes you so far, and there are tons of balls he doesn't even get close to that league-average outfielders are camped under. And his arm....like LoGo's, it's just ugly.

All things considered, I was MOSTLY complimenting Bonds, but trying not to be unrealistic about the situation. Saying "he's not the huge problem out there you'd expect him to be" was about as high a compliment as he deserves. But apparently you prefer to be unrealistic about the situation.
--------------------
p.s., two of my biggest pet peeves:

Being told "you are wrong" about a subjective opinion. The word you're searching for is "I disagree," unless you're arrogant enough to believe your opinion represents absolute truth. Save the phrase "you are wrong" for somebody who says "Barry Bonds never stole 20 bases in his career." Or, alternatively, tell me I'm wrong for saying there are no defensive metrics that say Bonds is anything but subpar in the outfield by SHOWING ME a metric that says Bonds is good. But I don't think you'll find that.
Being told "you're saying that because you're biased." I admit my biases ahead of time in order to give everyone a sufficient idea of where I'm coming from. It seems only fair to let people judge. But it gives me no pleasure to make stupid points bashing the Giants on some forum. I wouldn't do that. I'm only here to impart truth. And the truth is that Barry Bonds is not a good leftfielder. If I wanted to be BIASED, I'd tell you the Giants are every bit as bad as they're playing this year and will be lucky to win 70 games. In the meantime, I've spent many, many, many hours on this very forum reminding people who have forgotten what a great player Bonds is in multiple diaries. Was that because I'm a Dodger fan too? I guess not. I guess the only time I'm "a Dodger fan" is when disparage something about Barry, even though that thing is exceedingly obvious to everyone but extreme Giants homers: Barry is NOT a league-average outfielder, in spite of the things he still does exceptionally well.

by bleedjaxblue on Apr 12, 2007 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my biggest pet peeves:

1.Long winded people that like to tell me how I can speak to them. (I really don't care about what you like or dislike)

by caintastic on Apr 13, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

then I'll let everyone else know

I don't really like you

by bleedjaxblue on Apr 13, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really souldn't be surprised that their is ...

a Bums fan on here that also happens to be a bitch. Go tell everyone you don't like me. I am really sure they give a fuck.

by caintastic on Apr 14, 2007 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's pretty sad....

....that you can't get past the Giants-Dodgers rivalry, even on a message board like this one. I have no problem with the Giants, even though most Giants fans I'm around are outright abusive because of the team I root for. I watch it to root for the Dodgers to make the playoffs, not to root for them to beat the Giants. As for the Giants, I only root against them to the degree that: 1) it helps the Dodgers make the playoffs, and 2) it gets locals around me to shut up about the rivalry.

Every single post you've made in response to me on any thread has been hostile, toward both me and the team I root for. You have gone out of your way to do it, too.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/comments/2007/2/15/13829/1077/4#4
http://www.minorleagueball.com/comments/2007/2/26/132632/474/12#12

I guess this is my way of saying -- please, please grow up. I don't care about the rivalry. I DO care about someone on this board who's sole purpose is to act like a child and prejudge and harrass me because of the team I root for. If you want to make this a war, that's your call, but I know I'm adult enough to drop this. Can you say the same?

by bleedjaxblue on Apr 14, 2007 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I actually enjoy getting a rise out of you BUMS

and to answer your question, no I most certainly can not call myself adult enough to drop it. God, how boring would that be?

Down with the Dodgers and all who root for them!

p.s. I hope to post more hostile responses in the future.

by caintastic on Apr 16, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

awesome, dude

looking forward to it

by bleedjaxblue on Apr 16, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fielding vs. arm

Bonds was a fantastic fielder in his prime. But he always had Johnny Damon arm.

I remember him losing the NLCS for the Pirates in '92 because he skipped a throw home from about 200 feet

by Galt on Apr 11, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Bonds used to have a subpar arm that he made up for with a lightening-fast release. It was always pretty sh-tty though. He was an A+ leftfielder though, and deserves the praise.

by bleedjaxblue on Apr 11, 2007 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

eric young

this is actually one of the least dumb things i've heard a talking head say in this kind of situation. those are all totally reasonable picks to me. sure you can quibble, but the three guys he picked are certainly guys who were absolutely top-notch defensively in their primes.

i might take darin erstad over andruw in center, although he didn't perform at a high level for nearly as long. same goes for ichiro in RF over walker. in LF i don't think there's anybody to challenge bonds. seriously, can anybody even think of even one other great defensive outfielder who spent most or all of his career in LF?

by jpahk on Apr 12, 2007 12:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Carl Yastrzemski

Considering how great his arm was, he and not Bonds was probably the best defensive LF in history. Had he come up with any other team, he would have been a CF, but he was viewed as Teddy Ballgame's successor. He played one year in CF, 1964, and just missed leading the league in Range Factor. That may have been inflated by a flyball staff, but he was certainly more than adequate in center.

(There's an alternate universe somewhere where Yaz, Reggie Smith, and Ken Brett formed the greatest defensive OF in history. And here's a challenge: name a better group of defensive OFers all produced by the same farm system and active at the same than Fred Lynn (4 CF GGs), Reggie (CF GG '68), Juan Beniquez (CF GG '77), Rick Miller (CF GG '78), Yaz (7 LF GGs) and Dwight Evans (8 RF GGs).)

Yaz went back to LF at age 37 in 1977 and won his 7th Gold Glove, and as far as we can tell from Range Factors, it was entirely deserved.

by Eric Van on Apr 12, 2007 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rickey

Was really good actually. About as good as Bonds. His reputation isnt such but, he was good

Also, Carl Crawford is the best LF I have ever seen.

casedog

by casejud on Apr 12, 2007 5:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Im CF,

that's a tough descision between Griffey and Jones. If I had to choose I go with Griffey.

Right field, I think I can live with Larry Walker, but I would take Ichiro in that spot.

As for left, I gotta go Bonds on that one. Great range, good instincts and an accurate arm as well.

by NYYLover1000 on Apr 12, 2007 12:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Devo

Have you watched Devon White? I know he's a little before these guys but I haven't seen his equal defensively.

by pedrophile on Apr 12, 2007 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't he the guy that made that

great play in the WS when he played for the blue jays?

by NYYLover1000 on Apr 12, 2007 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes

he made a ton of great plays for the Jays and for Anaheim before that. But since he wasn't a hitter like Griffey they didn't show his hilights. I watched quite a bit of him and don't think Griffey was even close the fielder. Jones is close but I would still take Devo.

by pedrophile on Apr 12, 2007 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not Griffey,

Andrew Jones I would take over Griffey my bad.

by NYYLover1000 on Apr 12, 2007 12:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

EY

Sounds as if inhales helium before every broadcast. Or maybe he was in that Rocky Mountain air a few innings too many in his prime.

by acr on Apr 12, 2007 12:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ted Williams.

Enough said.

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Apr 12, 2007 12:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

D

It's about D

by pedrophile on Apr 12, 2007 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and about

guys in the league when Eric YOung was around

by nms on Apr 12, 2007 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Young probably shouldnt say that!?

and you said "I don't see where Young gets this. "

please

He played in the big leagues for years. I'd trust his opinions over anyones here.

Its one thing to disagree, its another to say that he shouldnt say this and that its ridiculous.

by nms on Apr 12, 2007 12:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

acronym

just tried to force-fit the title into E-S-P-N. couldn't come up with a better 'S' on short notice.

And, to clarify an earlier position, I was trying to come up with any memorable defensive LF from the EY era, but really couldn't. UPON FURTHER REVIEW, I suppose that the case for Bonds is as good as any, and I also consider Crawford to be right up there.

Jim Leyland:manager-Ty Cobb:player

by TigerFanInCleveland on Apr 12, 2007 6:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chad Curtis

When he threw the ball home he'd tumble into the ground. It was great =D

Morrow is the Sea Diamond.

by PujolsJunkie on Apr 12, 2007 1:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Curtis

Yeah, those tumbles were awesome. He'd do a complete somersault. I'd try it but I'd probably kill myself in the process.

by Lunkwill Fook on Apr 12, 2007 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Back to back

I still remember two consecutive plays he made. Tumbling catch in center that left Mattingly unable to advance from second. Then he fielded a line single to center and gunned Mattingly down at home, doing the somersault on the throw. I used to have a tape of that -- was an amazing defensive sequence.

by Flynn Blake on Apr 14, 2007 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My take....

I pretty much agree with everyone's take in RF and CF. Prefer Ichiro in RF, but Walker was also very good. Also, don't forget Mondesi in his early days was a pretty good RF with a great arm.

CF to me is a toss up between The Kid and Andruw. I saw way more of Griffey though since I am a Mariner fan, and with that homer-like view I would choose him, but wouldn't cry if Andruw Jones was in my OF. (Honorable mention to Devo, I remember him patrolling CF for the Jays in the 90s, and also Torii Hunter is very good as well). Jimmy E and Erstad were too limited range-wise, but made spectacular looking catches.

As for LF though, I am swayed by one played I saw Bonds make. It was soon after he signed with the Giants, like 93-95 range. There was a long fly ball hit to left and he did not even turn around for it. Just assumed it was a HR. It would have been a semi-easy out (around the warning track) but instead it was a double because he was too cocky/lazy to even make an attempt at it, thinking it was a HR. Skews my view of him. I was always impartial to Rickey Henderson though. His arm wasn't the greatest, but he got to a lot of balls many others couldn't.

by Boxkutter on Apr 12, 2007 2:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Andruw Jones

AJ was (sadly, he's not that good any more) an historically elite OF. Just check out the stats. In his prime, Jones made more plays than, well, just about anyone. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I encourage you to find his range factor stats from the late-90s and compare them to, well, anyone.

They're doing some kind of "all time gold glove" thing, and IMO, Andruw needs to be one of the OFs to win.

by mraver on Apr 12, 2007 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

clarification

by "not that good", I don't mean "he's not very good anymore", I just mean "he's no longer better than everyone else in the game by a country mile"; I still think he's an average-at-worse CF defensively, and I think playing with Francoeur and Langerhans has hurt his range numbers a bit lately, since they're also both really, really good.

by mraver on Apr 12, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs