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David Price or Andrew Miller?

Two lefties, tall power pitchers, one has already made the majors while the other dominated for Team USA over the summer and is projected as the #1 overall in June.  

Much has been said about Miller to this point, as many called him the best pitcher in the 2006 draft despite being picked 6th overall.  The Tigers are only using him out of the pen now, though he is expected to contribute for the AL defending champs.  

In 2006 Price was only a 2nd-team all-SEC pick at Vanderbilt.  However, he eventually put it all together and has completely dominated ever since he found his rhythm.  This could possibly be a case of a small sample size, though it is growing larger and we'll see more out of him by the time the draft rolls around.  

  1. By 2009, which one is more successful in the majors?
  2. How many high school phenoms from the same two draft classes are even more successful at the major league level?

0 recs  |  Comment 63 comments

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Miller
Miller will be, he has a better changeup, better slider, and a better overall heater.  He was also drafted by a much better team, no one thought the Tigers were going to be great last year but they did great and he fell to them.  Their rotation in two years is going to be amazing.  Verlander, Bonderman, Robertson, Miller, and Jurris-Sleeth-Miner combination.  Price will potentially be in a good rotation of Kazmir, Niemann, McGee, Davis, and Hellickson but remember Kazmir and Niemann have been injury prone.  I think Davis is going to be used in a trade to bring them a first baseman.

by Bravesin07 on Feb 17, 2007 9:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

One thing
Miller's change-up is virtually non-existant.  He doesn't really have one at all.  He throws a two-seam fastball that acts as his change-up, in the sense that it's a change of pace pitch, but his change isn't good at all.

by Tyler on Feb 18, 2007 12:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll take Price...
Miller might have the better heater in a vacuum, but to really pitch effectively he needs to pitch in the low-90's.  

I also like Price's secondary pitches better.  

It isn't much of a contest to me.

by templeUsox on Feb 17, 2007 10:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I've heard
Price is a lefthanded Mark Prior...I think I'd take that...

by Dfarth on Feb 17, 2007 11:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Starter
I don't know what you have read but Miller is heading to the minors this year and will be a starter.

They don't plan on using him as a reliever again.

by VtTigers on Feb 17, 2007 11:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I take Price,
sure Miller maybe has the better stuff but Price has more polish in his game in general

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 17, 2007 11:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I,m not a huge miller fan,
and also he was not the best pitcher in the 2006 draft. I think it was some guy who pitch in washington university. Oh now I remember, he was drafted by the Giants and his name is Tim Lincecum.

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 17, 2007 11:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

To me
Tim was the best pitcher in the 06 draft. His fastball is better than Miller, his curveball is better than Miller's slider and Tim is more polish than Miller. The only reasons why Miller is taken over Lincecum in the 06 draft is because he's 6"6 (while Lincecum is what 5"11) and he's lefthanded. Other than those two factors, Tim beats him out and their college #'s are comparable that year.

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 17, 2007 11:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

If I could have one of Lincecum or Miller...
for the future it would be Miller. He is taller, they both have good command but Miller has a nasty slider and that is the most dominant pitch in baseball (ask smoltz, wagner, and lidge when he was good) while hitters adjust to a curveball. I take Miller and also his delivery is much easier than Lincecum and I think Lincecum runs into injuries

by was385 on Feb 18, 2007 12:12 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think Lincecum Delivery
is overblown. I have seen his delivery several times and it's not as bad as people say it is.  Second, the guy has never had any serious injuries so far in his baseball carrer and third I think the guy has a bulldog mentality. And while the slider maybe the most dominate pitch when it's on, it's not as consistent as a curveball. All in All, I,m not a huge miller fan and really like Tim Lincecum not only because of the stuff but also his makeup.

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 18, 2007 12:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Why don't you like Miller?
Instead of saying you are not a fan of Miller over and over.  Why not give a brief synopsis of his stuff and why it will not work in the MLB?

Lincecum could end up being very good if he stays healthy and stays a starter his whole career.

But I think Miller could end up very good as well.  His slider is ridiculous.  His 2 seam fastball is a plus offering and so is his 4 seam fastball.  I think his change up needs some work.  I am not sure he will record strikeouts at the same type of rate as Lincecum.  He seems to be more of a groundball pitcher that can strike out the batter as well.  Which also means Miller will put a bit more pressure on the defense.

The only question with both of them is health.

by VtTigers on Feb 18, 2007 1:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you watch Andrew Miller's
delivery, the guy looks like he's slinging rocks. Miller's delivery is ugly period. Plus, when Miller was in HS, he was somewhat of a raw project. Despite coming out of college he still has the same problems out of college that he had in HS. That is why I find it ridiculous how people make such a bid deal of Lincecum's delivery. So what it's different, it looks alright to me from watching it. If anything, Miller's delivery is fucked up. That is why I take Price over Miller because he's polish, has a better feel for the change and their stuff is similar.

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 18, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my bad
big not bid sorry

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 18, 2007 12:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No reason to use language like that
I am sorry but I don't think there is a reason to post on here if you are going to use foul language when posting.

As for his motion.  It reminds me a lot of how Randy Johnson throws the ball.  In fact if you put the two next two eachother it would be hard to tell the motion apart.  Johnson has used that motion for around 19 seasons and through 546 starts.

I don't think there are major flaws in the motion itself.  He has a bit of a stiff leg but thats about all that I can see.

by VtTigers on Feb 18, 2007 12:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem with that motion
is if you drop your arm angle slightly, you have severe control problems. Remember, it is a low 3/4 delivery and if a 3/4 delivery angle is drop just slightly lower then your control is in bad shape. My apologize for my inappropriate language.

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 18, 2007 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

career
misspelled the word career

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 18, 2007 12:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

lol
yes, yes you did. what about the dozens of other errors? "carrer" was the only one that caught your eye?

by jpahk on Feb 18, 2007 9:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

man, who cares?
Do you really care about grammar that much? I don't get it. You guys keep harping on this guy and others about grammar, you make yourselves out as pathetic little school boys.

by gbrown on Feb 18, 2007 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

okay
i wasn't picking on him. i've never picked on him before. but i literally couldn't help laughing when he picked out one error and bothered to post again to correct it, after littering this whole thread with spelling, grammatical, and typographical mistakes. let's just say that the saying "re-shuffling deck chairs on the titanic" came to mind.

i will say that personally, i'm not a huge stickler for 100% newspaper-publishable linguistic correctness. (case in point, i don't even capitalize.) but when there are 4-5 mistakes per sentence, it makes it awfully hard to read and understand what somebody is saying. also you get the nagging feeling that you're attempting to discuss the finer points of minor league prospects with a very young child. that's always a disconcerting thought.

by jpahk on Feb 18, 2007 9:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miller>>Linecum>>Price
Yeah. We get it you don't like Miller.

by Bondomania on Feb 18, 2007 1:01 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Miller
I watched him at the CWS and was really impressed.  He gets massive action on his 2-seamer and still brings it fast and at a downward plane.  His slider looked like vintage Unit.

I can see how some might not like his delivery (it is side-arm and a little whippy...it really looks like a shorter Randy Johnson out there), but you can't argue with the stuff.  I think Miller will have the best career of last year's drafted pitchers.

by limozeen on Feb 18, 2007 3:01 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Price...
by far.

I think his slider can equal Miller's with a little consistency, that pitch is sick when it's on. He's got a way better changeup now also.

The best thing about Price vs. Miller is that Price destroys Miller mechanically. I'm not a big fan of Miller's stiff leg, cross body thing.

by SenorGato88 on Feb 18, 2007 12:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Slider?
I disagree about the slider.  Andrew Miller might have the best slider in baseball besides Francisco Liriano from what I can tell.

In one of Miller's MLB games, I saw him hit a righthanded batter with a slider that started outside.  And the batter had no idea it was coming.    Miller gets absolutely crazy ping-pong spin on his slider, and given normal development he will dominate with it.

by limozeen on Feb 18, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This just isn't true...
it's not even close to being true.

by templeUsox on Feb 18, 2007 5:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow
your brilliant logic has convinced me.  listen, I don't need to sit here and have people tell me what I think.  I know what a great slider looks like.  Miller's has as much break as anyone's in baseball, and batters have real problems seeing it off his hand.  Add in the groundball-inducing two-seamer and the high 90s high heat and you have one hell of a pitcher.

I saw Miller pitching in his element in the CWS and he was hitting the glove with both the fastball and the slider. I had no doubt then that Miller had the stuff to be a dominant starter...I was pretty damn pissed that he fell to a division rival in the draft.  He looked incredibly nervous in his big league stint, but spring training reports peg him as having a marked improvement in control.

by limozeen on Feb 18, 2007 9:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You have...
very little respect for the major league game if you think Miller can walk in and have the best slider in the MLB.  His slider is very good, it's not great.  It's not phenomenal, it's not historic, hell it wasn't even the best breaking ball in the draft.  And if you want to talk about sliders in the CWS, Miller's was nowhere close to Bryce Cox's.  So let him have the best slider in the minors, before you give it to him in the majors.  

by templeUsox on Feb 18, 2007 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hey
I go by my eyes, which tell me that Miller's slider has more break than pretty much anyone's and batters don't pick it up until it's too late.

by limozeen on Feb 18, 2007 11:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

why?
Why does he have to have the best in the minors to be best in the majors?

If An.Miller is in the majors he "could" have the best slider in the majors and someone else "could" have the best slider in the minors.

having said this i have no clue, lol.

Dukes is Jurastically better than Bradley. After all Dukes has been playing baseball ever since T-ball.

by pedrophile on Feb 19, 2007 12:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i absolutely love Price

 but i'll put money down now and a sig bet that says Millers Slider is superior.

 it's Unit-like from what i saw and is the main reason why he's compared to him.

by High Heater on Feb 18, 2007 5:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess a lot of you...
are too young to remember RJ in his prime.  It's really not unit-like.

by templeUsox on Feb 18, 2007 6:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
The reason he's compared is because he's a lefty with a good slider, not because he's got a slider that is RJ good
I ate a Grand Slam @ Denny's yesterday... pooped out a 2 run double today.

by slurve on Feb 18, 2007 6:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

question
What did the batters fear more? Watching the break on the slider or seeing RJ's butt-ugly face?
Dukes is Jurastically better than Bradley. After all Dukes has been playing baseball ever since T-ball.

by pedrophile on Feb 18, 2007 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha
John Kruk would answer the slider.  Occasionally those would just fly in some random direction for RJ.  Aint nothin more scary than standing in the box having no idea where the pitch may go.
I ate a Grand Slam @ Denny's yesterday... pooped out a 2 run double today.

by slurve on Feb 18, 2007 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miller
I would also take Miller over Price.  I just think that the arsenal that Miller has is superior to that of Price's.  I would like to see Miller's command improve, but he is just 21 so there is plenty of time to refine that.

by MHD on Feb 18, 2007 3:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm....
NYYlover likes Lincecum.  

I've finally found a concrete reason to start dis-liking Timmy!!!

I ate a Grand Slam @ Denny's yesterday... pooped out a 2 run double today.

by slurve on Feb 18, 2007 4:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

not sure
but as you can tell im very high on lincecum myself, and im also from new york, so i wouldnt worry too much.
Lincecum is the blood diamond.

by realityconquest on Feb 19, 2007 12:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

because
some folks need to prop themselves up by making fun of other people's cyber-grammar or ripping somebody else's opinion instead of articulating their own.

i've got to say, i hate the yankees, but i got love for you nyylover1000.  forget about the haters.  

"Well I believe in the soul..."

by D O on Feb 19, 2007 3:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not quite
I don't need to step on anyone to make myself taller.  From some of the responses my posts have gotten from NYYL, he has it coming.  He kinda shot his mouth off about my Bears and it blew up on him - he was then curiously quiet.  Then Rex Grossman went out and was the Colts MVP, contributing to Colts win more than Manning and he sat there like he told us so about the Bears D.

Myself, I could care less about grammar/punctuation, but some of the stuff he posts is completely unintelligible.  Mistakes happen, but man can butcher something to the point where you just have no idea of what he is trying to say.  Myself, I'll just ignore it and move on, others get frustrated about him cleaning up to where it is at least readable for discussion and poke at him for it.

I ate a Grand Slam @ Denny's yesterday... pooped out a 2 run double today.

by slurve on Feb 19, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're just a bitter chicago fan who hates NY Fans
Also, how the hell did the thing with the bears blew up in my face? First off, I picked the colts. Second I said the bears D was overrated and if you watch the Super Bowl it proved it. Look, we know Grossman was bad, but to ignore the poor job of the bears D is ludacris. I betcha your the same sorry chicago fan who blames Steve Bartman for ruining your chance to WS knowing it wasn't his fault. Plus, to say I was silent when the whole bears thing happen is wrong on your part. What Brian Griese was gonna make a difference for the bears to win. Anyway, I just gotta get that out of the way.

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 19, 2007 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe the Bears thing did blow up...
....in your face. You picked the Saints, remember? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. If I say "Tom Brady can't win the big one," am I right because it took until 2006/07 for that to be true?

Furthermore, I HATE the Bears, but the Super Bowl did NOTHING to "prove" the Bears D was overrated.

Also, ludacris is not ignoring the poor job of the bear D. Ludacris is a rapper.

And do Cubs fans who blame Steve Bartman really do so believing it wasn't his fault? Because I thought they DID think it was his fault. (Also, I do love the idea that there is a singular Cubs fan who thinks it's Bartman's fault though -- and that guy, you've just discovered, is slurve.)

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 19, 2007 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Alright
they beat the Saints, but also I can still say the Bears D is overrated because Seattle move the ball on them very well against them, and also going into the playoffs, the Bears D gave up an average 26 points per game. why don't you defend that. Plus, great defenses do not give up nearly 200 yards on the ground in the biggest game of the year.

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 19, 2007 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh I forgot,
if the conditions were pretty good, the colts would of had at least 40 plus points on the board.

by NYYLover1000 on Feb 19, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh? is that a fact?
Because, if that's a fact, I can't really argue with it.

But, on the off-chance that that's merely a supposition, I will make a few counter-arguments.

1) Why would the Colts have scored 40 if it hadn't been raining? Let me make the counter-argument that the Colts might have scored FEWER points if it hadn't been raining.

For example, did you consider that maybe the rain effected BOTH offenses? Maybe, if it weren't raining, the Bears might have possessed the ball a little longer, and Grossman wouldn't have had so many turnovers.

Maybe, if the score were closer, the Colts would have had to try to force more on offense, and come up short.

Maybe, if the Bears defense weren't on the field so much, they would have been more dominant for the time they WERE there.

If you give the Bears the ball for longer in the game, take away the stupid turnovers, and don't allow the Colts to chip away at the Bears, the score would be totally different.

Meanwhile, it's not like the Colts offense was hindered THAT much by the rain. Prove to me that THEY were, and the Bears weren't.

2) Even if the Colts had scored 40 (which would have been 33 DEFENSIVE points surrendered), it still would have been one game. It also would have been 5 fewer points than the Pats gave up to that same Colts juggernaut two weeks before.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 19, 2007 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

are we really....
....going to have to start NFL arguments again? Fine. Whatever. I'm game for it. We'll go until another poster chides us for it.

To begin with, I think you mean the Bears gave up 26 points per game IN the playoffs, because, "going into the playoffs," they gave up 15.9 points per game.

So why did they give up more in the playoffs? One, they were somewhat banged up. In case you didn't notice, they gave up more points in the last four games of the regular season as well than they had generally been giving up. Was this because "these were big games, and they couldn't step up"? St. Louis, TB, Detroit and Green Bay -- after you've all but clinched the top seed -- hardly seem like games you have to prove anything, so I don't think your theory holds much weight there.

Second of all, it's the playoffs. Do you know the thing that makes the playoffs different than the regular season? You're only playing really good teams. Most of them have really good offenses. You know what happens when a really good defense plays a really good offense? It gives up a few more points than when it plays a really bad offense. Rocket science, right?

You want to know what does NOT make the playoffs different than the regular season? Giving up points/yards in any game doesn't "prove" anything special. You can make a statement, "Great defenses DO NOT give up nearly 200 yards on the ground in the biggest game of the year," but I have no reason to believe that's proof of anything. They don't? Because I swear the Bears defense DID nearly give up 200 yards on the ground, and I'm pretty sure they're a good defense. Why do I say they're a great defense? Because of the other 18 games they played, averaged out. Besides, is there something special about rushing yards? Is 200 yards on the ground a benchmark, like 500 homeruns is to the Hall of Fame, in that, once you give it up, you are NOT a great defense, by definition? That's just garbage.

Besides, I don't know how many times people have to emphasize this to you, but what the Bears were capable of doing to Indianopolis was HARDLY a poor performance. If you told me that this generation's greatest offense was going to have the ball TWICE AS LONG as your team, and that, despite that, you were only going to give up 22 points, I would say that's a pretty impressive effort. I remember you tried to use the Colts success on third-down conversions before as a reason why the Bears D was subpar before, but that's absurd. The Colts were 50% on the year on 3rd-and-10-or-longer, and you want to tell me the Bears got "destroyed" because the Colts were 8-for-18 on 3rd downs of ANY length?

Yes, the Bears are vulnerable to the run up the middle. I've watched it all year. All in all, it hasn't been a fatal flaw by any stretch of the imagination, or did you forget that they won 15 games this year? Did the Bears D have a bad game when Frank Gore had over 10-yards-a-carry against them? I watched the game, and I can assure you: The 49ers were completely helpless that game.

If you want to pick a few games that the Bears didn't COMPLETELY shut down the opposition, I suppose that's your right. But I want to know who you WOULD consider a great defense -- or a great ANYTHING -- because everyone I know about has off-days. Is Albert Pujols overrated because he hit .200 in the World Series? I didn't think so. How about New England's D -- the only defense that gave up fewer points than the Bears during the regular season? They gave up 38 f-ing points to the Colts, despite having roughly even T.O.P. in the Championship game.

So, please, clarify how the Bears have been PROVEN overrated?

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 19, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bartman
Could care less about Bartman or people who continue to insist that is what we all believe.
I ate a Grand Slam @ Denny's yesterday... pooped out a 2 run double today.

by slurve on Feb 19, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no intention to say you did....
I was just responding on NYYLover's comment. Personally, I only know one Cubs fan who does blame Bartman. I don't care one way or the other though. I feel sorry for the guy and don't think there's any reason to give him the hell he's received, but I don't think it's outlandish to believe the Cubs would have won if it weren't for him.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 19, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're soooo busted
I could care less where you're from or what team you like.

I seem to remember you saying a bunch of crap pre-NFC championship...  I predicted the Bears to win and even gave some specifics in that Benson would be used to pound the ball (24 carries), that the "over-rated" D would account for 2-3 turnovers and the Saints, being a dome team, would play poorly outdoors in Chicago's January weather.  Can you say 3-for-3?  You disagreed saying something to the effect that the sAints had one of the best offenses in football and some jiberish about how they were a team of destiny because of Katrina.  Puke.  

Well, that "over-rated" defense held that highly touted offensive juggernaut pretty much in check.  Duece/Bush held to under 40 yards combined rushing and more importantly 14 points.  NYYL's response... crickets.  Crickets until Grossman cost them the game and then you ran for your PC as fast as you could, probably wetting yourself in the process, to dump on the Bears and toot your own horn.  I don't care if the 85 Bears D played in that game, they would have not been able to overcome SIX turnovers by Grossman.

The Bears D lost a few MAJOR players this year, yet they produced the most turnovers/points off turnovers in the NFL this year.  Over-rated.  Pfff.  You wanna call something over-rated, look no farther than your own city.  Hello Eli.

I ate a Grand Slam @ Denny's yesterday... pooped out a 2 run double today.

by slurve on Feb 19, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hahahaha!
PATHETIC.
I ate a Grand Slam @ Denny's yesterday... pooped out a 2 run double today.

by slurve on Feb 19, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what on Earth....
.....do you mean here?

Didn't he just CLOBBER you with evidence?

And you're saying "bye-bye"?

Why -- did you black out because it hit you so hard?

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 19, 2007 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As Smokey
from the movie Friday would say to NYYL "Damn!!! You just got knocked the f*ck-out!!!"
I ate a Grand Slam @ Denny's yesterday... pooped out a 2 run double today.

by slurve on Feb 19, 2007 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder
Who would win if this was made into a poll.  Well the plus of it not being a poll is that people that don't really know can't give their input.
Hey fish, leave those kids alone!

by The Congo Hammer on Feb 18, 2007 9:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hey, we're all wrong at some point
Mid-season I dropped Teahen off my roto team last year.
Recent research has clearly shown that 93.6% of the gunmen you've killed...were simply accident-prone. Gunslinger. - The Limelighters

by Yoda on Feb 19, 2007 8:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I dropped him off my keeper team...
after trading for him in the off-season. Talk about bone-headed.

by mraver on Feb 19, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree Congo....
Seems like there have been a few people in this thread already that have given their input despite not knowing anything :)

FWIW, I have not seen Price pitch in person, so I will not comment.  But from everything I have read, despite being 2 very different pitchers, they may very well have similar amounts of success in the majors.

by guru4u on Feb 19, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Two Good Pitchers, but...
I think that Miller has a HUGE upside and will outshine Price's career, IF he stays healthy.  The big questions for Miller are developing better control, getting a better change of pace (either change or curve), and maintaining his mechanics.

Right now he could win 12-15 games at the MLB level with 150+K's and a sub 4.3 ERA, which is more than the majority of teams have as their #2 in their rotations.

Price hasn't shown the consistancy to even be projected at the MLB level yet.  He has the tools, AWESOME tools, but he's still an unknown.  

That said, I think Price will be the #1 pick in the draft next year.  However, until he pitches a game of pro ball he isn't in the same class as Miller, who has shown the ability to make a MLB rotation.

Also, Price's slider may be even better than Miller's if he can consistantly control it.  Price's slider is like Liraino's while Miller's is a more sweeping like Johnson's.

by Sage Sam on Feb 19, 2007 1:06 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I've heard
Price described as a lefthanded Mark Prior...I'll take it.

Nothing against Miller but I'm not sold on him.  I think he has great stuff but I'm not sure if I think he'll have good enough command and control...just an opinion but I'll admit I haven't seen enough of either of them to make a really informed one...

by Dfarth on Feb 20, 2007 1:19 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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