Minor League Ball: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Cal RB Jahvid Best Seriously Injured, Carted Off Field

BA's Top 10 Dodger Prospects

  1. Andy LaRoche
  2. Clayton Kershaw
  3. Scott Elbert
  4. James Loney
  5. Tony Abreu
  6. Ivan DeJesus Jr.
  7. Jon Meloan
  8. Blake DeWitt
  9. Josh Bell
  10. Preston Mattingly
I'm shocked to see Ivan DeJesus Jr. so high. Isn't this guy's ceiling being an adequate defensive player with a bat that won't totally destroy the offense? Considering the last projection they gave of DeWitt was "Todd Walker-clone," I feel like that's a little too much focus on defense.
Poll
Which Dodger prospect was the biggest snub from the top 10 list?
Cory Dunlap
6 votes
Delwyn Young
22 votes
Mike Megrew
0 votes
Other
8 votes
Kyle Orr
11 votes
Justin Orenduff
27 votes
Bryan Morris
29 votes
Chin-Lung Hu
43 votes
Greg Miller
58 votes
Xavier Paul
5 votes

209 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 33 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

No snub
I think Orenduff and Morris are the closest to the top-10 and may even be there talent-wise, but their injury issues make them question marks.

by mckeeno on Feb 15, 2007 2:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Other
I votes Dewitt. Just a feeling ui have on him. not much of a snub though. Just maybe...#5
casedog

by casejud on Feb 15, 2007 2:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't see a snub
I do think however Miller is gonna contribute this season however, and could be a closer at the latest by 2009 if he stays healthy

by dlpme77 on Feb 15, 2007 11:55 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Okay wait...
These guys are all in the minors at this point. When do they officially lose their soles? Is it when they first sign or when they play in their first game as a Dodger?

Sub question: Is it possible for a once soleless Dodger to then regain his sole?

by caintastic on Feb 15, 2007 12:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

no souls?
What makes you say they have no soul?

Oh! I see where you'd get that impression -- because of the way they brutally slaughter the Giants in the regular season, it makes you think they are cold-blooded killers.

I assure you, though -- unlike Barry, who sold his soul to the devil (and BALCO) to hit a few extra homers, all of these players retain their souls through the entire pre-arbitration period. They lose their souls once they sign with Scott Boras.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 1:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

god...
I wish I could think of some Dodger players that sold their souls to steroids for a few extra mph on their fastballs or a few more hrs.

Shit... who might be a good example? Nope I am stumped. Evry Dodger player has a clean record. Man you really got me there.

by caintastic on Feb 15, 2007 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

repko its repko
i swear to god that guy is so juiced.

by wildthang on Feb 16, 2007 4:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DePo
was on the juice. I'm sure of it.
Dukes is Jurastically better than Bradley. After all Dukes has been playing baseball ever since T-ball.

by pedrophile on Feb 17, 2007 7:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and in answer to your sub-question
I think not, because, as much as I have to root for him now, I really still hate Jeff Kent. I would assume it works the other way too.

Did you root for Marquis Grissom or Matt Herges? Or were they still devoid of a soul?

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm
Is that you, NYYLover1000?

by Jgaztambide on Feb 15, 2007 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

calm down!
Don't be so tightly strung. I respond to your barbing by making fun of Barry Bonds a little, and someone else makes a comment about how you called the human spirit something the Nike makes, and you start getting all hostile.

Are you just upset because Sabean gave away all your draft picks? Don't be pissed! In ten years time, I'm willing to bet the team will be ready to compete again. Possibly.

Also, Barry Bonds lost his soul WAY before he started doing steroids. The second he left Pittsburgh, he delved into some demonic $#!+.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bleedjax
While I agree that DeJesus at 6 is a bit surprising, I think you're underrating his defensive potential.  I don't know exactly where I read it, but I recall hearing that a few scouts thought that his defensive instincts may be even better than Hu's to go with his already plus arm at short.  I think his defensive ceiling is an above average shortstop at the very least.

Offensively, his power clearly leaves something to be desired but with his great plate discipline I think he's a one of the better dodger breakout candidates for next year

Also, how did you get BA's Dodger top ten so early?    

by neutralluke on Feb 15, 2007 2:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Presumably
He subscribes to the paper magazine.

by Brickhaus on Feb 15, 2007 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I do....
...but you can get the top 10s online WAY before the paper version comes out. I think the NL East one just arrived a week or two ago at my home.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

most of the reports I've read on DeJesus...
...describe him as being extremely "solid" at short: makes few errors, has good instincts and a quite good arm. I guess calling him "average" was a bit of an overstatement, but I guess it was in contrast to someone like Hu, who seems to have a much higher "defensive ceiling" because of his extreme athleticism and superior acrobatic abilities. The point is, in DeJesus, I see someone who is a perfectly good shortstop (yes, probably above league average), but not a Rey Ordonez/Cesar Izturis-type who deserves a spot in the lineup DESPITE the offensive ineptitude.

And as for OFFENSIVE abilities, the plate discipline is quite nice, and supposedly he's a nice linedrive hitter. Still, both Hu and Abreu seemed to outhit him either this year, last, or both, while being much closer to the majors (and probably BOTH better defensively). All in all, it seems difficult to rate a guy this high who's only real plus skill offensively he projects to have is plate discipline while he's still in Low-A.

As for how I got the list early, it was posted on the Dodgers' official MLB blog: http://insidethedodgers.mlblogs.com/ . A great blog in some ways -- they give you the pregame lineup 5 hours before gametime, along with press releases and other info on what's happening -- but the site is a little full of BS.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
Thanks for the link.  I'm a huge Dodger's fan, can't believe I've never heard of that site before.

De Jesus certainly is a tough sell at #6, especially ahead of a in Meloan who I think has closer potential, but I think you're still underselling his offensive potential a bit.  He's always been described as having gap power and he's a little bit bigger than Hu and Abreu (he's listed at 5'11 while Hu and Abreu are listed at 5'9) so I think there's quite a bit of room for improvement as far as his power goes.  Obviously he'll probably never even hit 10 homers in any of his professional seasons, but I think he could definitely hit his fair share of doubles.  

I won't argue that he's a better prospect than Abreu because he's not, but I think he's going to surprise a few people with his performance next year.  Remember that he's going to be playing in a home park that is great for doubles and singles hitters and a league that helps offensive performance a great deal.  Couple that with the simple fact that he'll be getting out of Columbus and a pitcher's league and I really don't think something like .310 .390 .415 is completely out of the question.  

On a completely different subject, what do you think about Zach Hammes?  I read some reports out fo the HWL that were saying that he was just lights out over there and am pretty excited to see what he can do next year.  Was it just a small sample size?  Or do you think he finally is starting to live up to his great potential?

by neutralluke on Feb 15, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a huge Meloan fan....
...but I definitely think DeWitt is being undersold on the list.

As for High-A being a good home ballpark, you do remember they're moving to the Cal League, right? So the entire league will be pretty great to hit in. I'm extremely upset about this, because it makes player evaluation much more difficult. I would agree with your projected ceiling for DeJesus if it were the FSL, though; Cal League, who knows? 30-homerun power?

On Hammes -- I had read the same exceedingly positive reports about him that you were referring to, but I feel the same way about him as I do about most Dodger pitching prospects. There's something about the Dodger pitching tradition that just makes scouts get all teary-eyed, and their hearts well up as they give all Dodger pitching prospects 70s and 80s with reckless abandon. Combine this with our pitching-friendly minor league affliates (until High-A now, plus Triple-A), and you get a lot of sparkling K/9 and K/BB rates.

From the last five years or so, this has led the prospect community to follow (in no particular order) Chuck Tiffany, Chad Billingsley, Mike Megrew, Jonathon Broxton, Jon Meloan, Julio Pimentel, Blake Johnson, Ben Diggins, Jhonathan Figueroa, Hong-Chih Kuo, Jose Diaz, Edwin Jackson, Greg Miller, Clayton Kershaw, Justin Orenduff, Joel Hanrahan, Kris Foster, Scott Elbert, Yhency Brazoban and now, apparently, Zach Hammes.

Obviously, I'm excited to see how Hammes looks this next year too, since the scouting reports seemed to indicate he had really figured it out, and was also throwing much harder. At the same time, the HWL stats themselves are likely meaningless, and I've been burnt by too many other Dodger "pitching prospects" to keep believing the hype that surrounds them all -- especially the ones that have done as little as Hammes has. I guess next year will be the test, though, since he'll be 23 in Double-A for the first time and has yet to show anything in the regular season.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
It's funny that you should mention Dewitt because I actually think he's one of the more overrated players in the Dodgers system while Meloan is a tad underrated (although he's popped up on so many sleeper lists lately that that stigma may have reversed).  Maybe there's something in the scouting reports that lead you to believe that he is underrated.  I know he is reported to have a picture perfect swing from the left side and a professional approach, but I just don't see how a guy that's going to be 22 that may or may not be able to stick at 2nd and may or may not ever hit worth a lick should be ranked anywhere near where he's been ranked in the past.  

I know Meloan has the injury problems and somewhat small sample sizes apply for last season, but it's really hard to argue with the results or the stuff.  K/9 of over 14, k/bb of close to 5 to one,  close to 2 to 1 g/f ratio, and 39 hits in 70 innings!  You know it's not just because of deception because his fastball was supposedly touching 97 with one of the best curves in the system.  I just want to ask you, what's not to like?

by neutralluke on Feb 15, 2007 4:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Meloan v. DeWitt
First of all, DeWitt won't turn 22 until August 20th, so I believe it's fair to say that he was 20 last year and will be 21 this upcoming season.

Second, I think DeWitt's performance in the pitcher-friendly FSL is much more impressive than most people give him credit for (partly because I think people totally misunderstand the park factor). Beyond this, he obviously has the potential to improve, as you touch upon. As of the HWL post-season prospect list writeup and chat wrap from BA, they twice emphasized that DeWitt would stay at second, and they thought he could handle it.
---------------------------------
On Meloan -- yes, the overrated tag is in response to how he's gone from an unknown to a popular sleeper to now being someone who is in top 100 prospect discussions.

Here's my feeling on him. First off, as you mention, it was 52 innings pitched last year -- not exactly a great sample size. Furthermore, of those 52 innings, only 10.1 were in Double-A. And, on top of that, he was pitching in relief, where it's much easier to dominate over short stretches, and he started at U of A for three years. Finally, it was in the Dodgers' pitching-friendly minor league parks.

So, all in all, we have a college starting pitcher who put up good K/BBs in a very small number of innings in great pitching parks mostly in classifications at the bottom of where he should be given his level of maturity. I don't know about you, but I feel like A LOT of college starters could be converted to very effective relievers in the low minors, and even more could LOOK really good over a few short innings in tough hitting parks.

Obviously, the scouting reports are nice too, but, like I said before, I feel like scouts get a little too enamored with Dodger pitchers who are having success. It's just a systematic error that needs to be corrected for. I'm not saying that Meloan ISN'T good; the curve sounds awesome and, as a reliever at least, he can certainly bring some heat. I just don't see enough proof that it's true yet, and I have trouble ranking someone that high who is going to be a setup guy too.

Besides, aren't ACTUAL major league closers usually converted a little later than Meloan, a la Broxton? I'm not saying it can't happen this way, but, again, turning a fairly talented pitcher into a reliever this early is a sure way to lead to deceptively dominant numbers against poor competition.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough
I agree that too many people see Vero's park factors and automatically discount a players performance there even though it comes in one of the tougher leagues in the minors.  It is especially evident in Dewitt's case because as a left handed batter he doesn't benefit nearly as much as a right hander would in Vero making his numbers seem all that more impressive.  I still am not completely sold on him as a 2nd baseman but I definitely am starting to see your point.

It was a little strange how the Dodgers treated Meloan last year.  He wasn't exactly a reliever as he would pitch 2-3 innings at a time and not on consecutive days but he certainly wasn't a starter.  As far as his numbers against lower competition, yeah, that obviously applies but remember that he just turned 22 in September making last season his age 21 season.  Even for a guy coming from college, as a 21 year old those stats are pretty impressive.  Even though it was just 10 innings, it's hard to argue with a 21 year old that strikes out over 7 batters for every hit allowed (23 k's to 3 hits).

by neutralluke on Feb 15, 2007 6:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I definitely agree on Meloan....
....the numbers were dominant. And I also he's got a hell of an upside. I really hope we can find a way to work him back into the rotation, too. To me, he's still a back-of-the-top 10 prospect, though I have no problem with where BA ranked him either, but I can see your point too on age-to-league and the overall outstanding numbers (even if in so very, very few innings).

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

by the way....
I voted for Kyle Orr on the poll. I guess on pure name-recognition that I'm not surprised Miller and Hu are winning (not that they're bad choices either), and Orenduff and Morris would CLEARLY be on the top 10 if it weren't for injuries (so I can see why people who are discounting those voted for them). However, I am surprised by the lack of support for Orr. He's behind Delwyn Young, for God's sake! Delwyn Young will be 25 on June 30, he's a (poor) left fielder, and he's really not all that much of a hitter. The counting stats in Vegas were pretty, and back in the day, as a 2B, I can see voting for him, but now? Not so much.

Also, the more I look at it, the more I feel like BA underrated Josh Bell on the poll, though I look forward to what they'll put in their writeup.

My personal top 10 would be:

  1. Andy LaRoche
  2. James Loney
  3. Clayton Kershaw
  4. Scott Elbert
  5. Blake DeWitt
  6. Josh Bell
  7. Tony Abreu
  8. Jon Meloan
  9. Preston Mattingly
  10. Kyle Orr
If either Morris or Orenduff were uninjured, they would place 6th and 7th, respectively (in other words, with Josh Bell in between them).

My 11 is Miller and 12 is Hu.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 10:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

LaRoche
What's your prediction of a typical year (BA, HR, RBI) for LaRoche during his prime?

by dmitri on Feb 15, 2007 10:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Instead of Crystal Ball-ing it up....
.....I think this is a better way of presenting what I think of LaRoche.

First off, a probability distribution for what type of player he will become (anything I don't list I believe has a <2% chance of occuring; however, I adjust what I AM listing to equal 100%, so other possible outcomes -- such as "career minor leaguer" -- are treated like 0% chances, even though they are not):

Career platoon/never gets starting role: 4%
Bad starter: 12%
Decent starter, short career: 3%
Decent starter, long career: 17%
Good starter, short career: 8%
Good starter, long career: 33%
Star: 18%
Superstar: 5%

The tough thing about projecting LaRoche is, it's still not entirely clear what type of hitter he is. Early in his career, he had prodigious power but looked like a strikeout hazard who would never hit for average. At this point, he seems to have sacrificed some of that power to become an all-around great hitter, though I believe there's a good chance he gets a lot of that power back. (Just for reference, check out how much power his brother added at a late age; also note that, just as LaRoche was hitting full-stride this year in terms of power, he suffered the labrum injury.)

Anyway, I guess I'll provide two projections: his good starter, long career projection -- as it is the most likely, as I see it -- and his superstar projection -- just since I think it's worthwhile to see what it would look like if everything went right.

I'll list a (quick, super-estimated) Crystal Ball with ABs, BA and HRs for each year of his career (I won't venture to predict RBI), starting with the "good career":

2007 - 140 ABs, .268, 6 HRs
2008 - 420 ABs, .288, 17 HRs
2009 - 540 ABs, .292, 24 HRs
2010 - 530 ABs, .318, 28 HRs
2011 - 580 ABs, .303, 27 HRs
2012 - 550 ABs, .291, 33 HRs
2013 - 530 ABs, .293, 26 HRs
2014 - 570 ABs, .299, 36 HRs
2015 - 510 ABs, .311, 26 HRs
2016 - 550 ABs, .283, 22 HRs
2017 - 510 ABs, .286, 19 HRs
2018 - 400 ABs, .269, 21 HRs
2019 - 200 ABs, .251, 14 HRs
TOTALS: 299 career homers (a very unlikely prediction, since I'm willing to bet he'd stick around for #300)

For the superstar projection (involves him maximizing his power potential):

2007 - 160, .273, 7 HRs
2008 - 480, .296, 21 HRs
2009 - 580, .310, 31 HRs
2010 - 530, .301, 34 HRs
2011 - 560, .330, 42 HRs
2012 - 550, .318, 37 HRs
2013 - 610, .302, 40 HRs
2014 - 570, .312, 34 HRs
2015 - 560, .293, 46 HRs
2016 - 540, .322, 37 HRs
2017 - 550, .290, 32 HRs
2018 - 580, .304, 27 HRs
2019 - 490, .285, 22 HRs
2020 - 470, .277, 19 HRs
2021 - 290, .270, 14 HRs
2022 - 40, .279, 2 HRs
TOTALS: 445 HRs

So, for his prime, I'd say, the modal choice would be .290 with 30 HRs, the upper-end choice would be .320 with 42 HRs.

What are your thoughts on LaRoche?

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 15, 2007 11:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LaRoche
Interesting analysis. I think the "good career" is more likely, particularly if he stays with the Dodgers. He may be similar to Scott Rolen (perhaps even with the injury aspect). I do like LaRoche's plate discipline, but if he's pressured to hit for more power, that may be sacrificed to some extent.  

by dmitri on Feb 16, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Really like the list
Especially the fact that you'd have Morris at 6 if he were healthy.    Obviously his walk rate was too high and his era was pretty terrible, but that came in a good hitters park.  He was also one of the unluckiest pitchers in the Pioneer league as his BABIP was .386 even with a groundball percentage of over 50%.  I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do when he gets back.

Josh Bell is the other guy I really like from that Raptors team.  His bb rate is just average and is strikeout percantage is just downright poor, but when you have a 19 year old kid that is slugging .563 from the right side of the plate and .540 from the left side you know you're looking at someone with absolutely immense potential.  It will be interesting to see if he can keep his k's down enough to keep a decent batting average but even if he is only .250-.260 hitter I think he could still have a pretty decent career ahead of him.  

Nice list.

by neutralluke on Feb 16, 2007 2:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kyle Orr
I don't see how Kyle Orr can even be in the conversation for the Top 10.  He hasn't played pro ball at all, and while that won't keep really premium amatuers who signed late from being ranked highly by Baseball America, Orr is only a 4th round Canadian kid who may take quite a while to adjust to pro ball because he is used to a much lower standard of competition than American HS kids.

Also, Baseball America ranked Orr #25 in the Dodgers' system in the Prospect Handbook, lower than every name in the poll except Xavier Paul, who is #26.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 16, 2007 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well, if I were just copying BA's list....
....this wouldn't even be a conversation, right?

For me, I view Orr as a premier amateur. He was commonly viewed as the best Canadian player available in the draft, and scouts agree he was premier power potential (though they obviously didn't all agree on how likely he was to reach that potential).

However, the person who I trust more than most other scouts is Logan White, who seems quite taken with Orr. If White feels that way about him, it gives me the impression he feels Orr has a pretty decent shot of fulfilling his potential, and I don't make a habit out of taking the field versus Logan White.

On the idea that you have to be a "premier" amateur to make this list without any experience -- Preston Mattingly WAS NOT considered a premier amateur by most of the scouting community (if I'm not mistaken, he didn't make BA's high school top 100). However, he has some strong tools, and the fact that White would use a supplemental first round pick on him was enough to elevate his "prospect status" from essentially nonexistent to fairly high.

Obviously, Mattingly played a handful of innings in the GCL, but I don't see how those innings are what make him more or less relevant to a top 10 discussion. In general, GCL stats aren't super meaningful, and whatever meaning you can hope to get is that a player tore the league in two or else was totally overwhelmed. Mattingly was neither, so it doesn't seem like his playing time makes him a more worthwhile discussion point than Orr -- unless your claim is that Orr is too likely to entirely bust, and he has to prove he can at least VAGUELY handle GCL pitching before we talk about him.

However, if THIS were your belief, it would go against what you say in your post -- that Orr may take a little while to adjust to better competition in the US. To me, I don't see how it's relevant AT ALL in terms of prospect status if he puts up good numbers next year or if it takes him a year to adjust, so long as you believe he will make the adjustment (which I do). However, your claim that it WILL take him time seems to defeat your own argument that we would know anything from the handful of innings he's played already.

Obviously, on someone like Orr, it's totally a judgment call -- both on how much you like security of prospects and how good you believe he really is, given how little there is to base this judgment on. To me, I'd put him in a top 10. If you wouldn't, fine. I certainly don't think it's "not worth discussing" either because we haven't seen him play or because BA doesn't rank him that highly.

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 16, 2007 8:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re:
"For me, I view Orr as a premier amateur. He was commonly viewed as the best Canadian player available in the draft"

Big deal, Nick Weglarz, another 1B power prospect, was the top Canadian in the 2005 draft (ranked 136 in their 2005 predraft coverage)...

"If White feels that way about him, it gives me the impression he feels Orr has a pretty decent shot of fulfilling his potential, and I don't make a habit out of taking the field versus Logan White."

Do you think Baseball America goes against the grain with Logan White? They practically give him hand jobs...

I seriously doubt even Logan White himself would place Orr in the Dodgers top 10. I think this is just shiny new toy syndrome.

by natsfan2005 on Feb 17, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough
we'll just have to wait and see how he plays, won't we?

by bleedjaxblue on Feb 17, 2007 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Minor League Ball: Where the Future of Baseball is Discussed
Start posting on Minor League Ball »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Pose_small
SHS 'spect list continued....101-201
Hu_080227mag_uptonscover_small
daveh's top 111 prospects for 2010
Pose_small
SHS' 2010 top 100 prospects in MiLB

Recent FanPosts

N16115505_31581383_8646_small
Rising Stars Chat
Small
Dexter Fowler and UZR
Small
Teahen to the White Sox....
Planetterror_small
Stephen Strasburg is out of the AFL Rising Stars Game
N16115505_31581383_8646_small
Twins Acquire J.J. Hardy For Carlos Gomez
Small
BA NYM TOP 10
Batmanbaseball_small
Timmy Lincecum likes weed.....
Small
Lester or Votto
Kurtz_small
Hermida Traded to Red Sox
Small
Community Prospect List - Reds

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Carew_small John Sickels


Site Meter