Hughes or Joba?
I just thought of a new, interesting debate.
But honestly, I've gotten back into this debate and it's fun. It really is interesting to see the most famous franchise in sports have two of the most exciting prospects in the game at a position that allows more than one to exist.
I feel like Hughes has gotten EXTREMELY underrated by Joba fans because he lacks the 99 MPH fastball and of course...media savvy.
Both have pretty decent injury histories, and many some of the Joba obsessed (and theres ALOT of them) ignore his past and step around the fact that he pitched only 112 innings last year.
Hughes has had a ton of annoying injuries, and his stuff IS lesser. But I don't buy that Joel Sherman crap about his work ethic. Actually, if either of them have to work extra hard its Joba, with the past weight problems that have affected him.
Honestly, they're both kickass prospects...but I'm becoming more and more torn on who I like more. I'm blown away by Joba's stuff, but Hughes isn't exactly being blown out there. Mechanically, I like Joba better than Hughes, but Hughes' mechanics looked a little off this year.
Hm...maybe I'll make that the difference and take Joba.
Who do you like?
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58 comments
Comments
Hughes
Most Yankees fans know that pitching coach Dave Eiland has worked with Hughes throughout his minor league career and helped him develop that nasty curveball. Eiland came up to help at the major league level after the AAA season ended last year and, I would say, not coincidentally, Hughes really started getting back together so much so that by the time he pitched against the Indians, he had that mid-90s fastball back and was throwing a much more biting curve than Yanks fans had seen since he returned from injury.
With Eiland as the major league pitching coach all of next season, I see Hughes doing great things and showing better stuff than he showed for most of last year.
by Stephcaflowne on Dec 7, 2007 11:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hughes and its not even clsoe right now
by Havok1517 on Dec 7, 2007 11:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I take Hughes too but I think it may be closer than you say.
by Stephcaflowne on Dec 8, 2007 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
keep i mind...
by sabernar on Dec 8, 2007 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
by ajohnst1 on Dec 8, 2007 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Joba has been
by Darce on Dec 8, 2007 12:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
There are many many
I'm not saying Joba is not good or valuable at all. Nor, am I saying he can't be an effective starter but he hasn't shown that yet. Joel Zumaya was the same way but Zumaya was seen as a closer Joba is not. There is a reason why a #1 starter is way more important than a closer. Mariano (questionably the best closer ever) could not cut (no pun intended) as a starter due to injury/performance and was inserted as the closer afer Wetteland.
by Havok1517 on Dec 8, 2007 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Joba > Zumaya as a
I like him way better mechanically. Zumaya was a high effort guy, Joba throws his gas with a little less effort.
by SenorGato88 on Dec 8, 2007 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No argument here
by Havok1517 on Dec 8, 2007 1:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his scouting
as a starter he was throwing 94-97, up to 100, with that plus-plus curve
some may be overrating him based on his relief success, but others are underrating him saying that his stuff is a product of being a reliever
by bmxstreetrider86 on Dec 8, 2007 4:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wrong
I really don't believe that this is true. Throwing 100mph is a very rare thing. Can some pitchers do it? Sure. But not "many many". Especially not with the accuracy that it takes to actually throw strikes most of the time.
by sabernar on Dec 8, 2007 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Many capable of throwing 100
by Fabian on Dec 8, 2007 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
by Havok1517 on Dec 8, 2007 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Definition
2)something that has actual existence - space exploration is now a fact
3) an actual occurrence - prove the fact of damage
Evidence.... proof, actual... citing your opinion and your memory of a random radar reading at an exhibition game where no doubt the guns were juiced is not a fact. It is an opinion, please do not say your opinions are facts.
by jbluestone on Dec 8, 2007 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not an opinion
by Havok1517 on Dec 9, 2007 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Close
by Con on Dec 8, 2007 12:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
compared to Joba's
by Havok1517 on Dec 8, 2007 12:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Going Joba here myself...
- From everything I've read, Joba's stuff is better than Hughes
- His performance, albeit somewhat limited, was better than Hughes
- From all indications, the Yanks had Joba as off-limits, and Hughes as not.
I've never read anything that said he loses velocity in games, but a link to a story that said as much may sway me.
by beastball on Dec 8, 2007 12:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
good point
I never considered this and I find it to be very telling.
by kaisertown on Dec 8, 2007 5:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
-1
by wir963 on Dec 8, 2007 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hughes here by a mile
by Bravesin07 on Dec 8, 2007 1:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
At least Mike Mussina?
Agreed on Joba's frame, but not because he's only 6'2.
by SenorGato88 on Dec 8, 2007 1:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nitpicking...
by Tabata Time on Dec 8, 2007 1:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Joba
- Not as homerprone as Hughes has been
- Better stuff-nastier
- Great mechanics (not that Hughes didn't have great mechanics)
- Fastball and K rates
by bobbymcnally on Dec 8, 2007 9:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
+1
those 4 reasons are spot-on, and add a few more:
-the Yanks are in the best position to judge and they clearly rank Joba above Hughes.
-people obsess about minor Joba injuries, but it's Hughes who has been injured much more -- have to worry about that.
-there are worries about Hughes' ability to keep his stuff late into the games. Joba has shown the ability to keep his stuff into the 7th/8th innings (some people below wonder about that, and clearly they haven't' ever watched Joba pitch in the minors).
it's frankly cut and dry. just because hughes was teh better prospect coming into last year doesn't mean he is now. just as Homer Bailey's star has dimmed a bit, so has Hughes'.
by scooter on Dec 8, 2007 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Facts"
by Fabian on Dec 8, 2007 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hughes has better control
by Bravesin07 on Dec 8, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
small sample size
by Bravesin07 on Dec 8, 2007 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hughes has a larger
by Darce on Dec 8, 2007 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: BB/9
by Fabian on Dec 8, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
by Kanst42 on Dec 8, 2007 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What? No Tom Seaver?
by Con on Dec 8, 2007 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You stop looking at a site because...
That's pretty stupid.
by mraver on Dec 8, 2007 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm oK with opinions...
by Con on Dec 9, 2007 2:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Play Offs
by wir963 on Dec 8, 2007 12:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hijack, sorry
Right now I am thinking Tim, Buch, Gallardo, Joba, Hughes, Dice-K, Bailey. But I can be swayed!
by drwmsu1 on Dec 8, 2007 12:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
How about
I know I am playing devil's advocate but hey why not. Hughes is two years younger then the rest except for Gallardo and H. Bailey. As a 21 year old, he has done a lot live up to the name of "phenom"
by Darce on Dec 8, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Push
by slurve on Dec 8, 2007 2:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
joba
i don't think this is particularly close, and it's not just "what have you done for me lately." joba right now is a better prospect than hughes ever was, even before we ding him for a so-so 2007.
as an aside, joba, buchholz and lincecum in the past 12 months have caused me to totally re-evaluate what i think of as a great minor league K rate. it's really ridiculous what they've done. i hesitate to say they're going to make us all forget about liriano, verlander, weaver, papelbon, and felix (the insane rookie pitcher class of '05), but nobody has had statistical credentials like this in my memory.
by jpahk on Dec 8, 2007 3:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
+1...
From what I've found, Beckett had the best minor league run out of anyone I've ever seen. His numbers were absurd, and we haven't seen anything like it since.
by beastball on Dec 8, 2007 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm....
63 Innings 26 Hits 104 K's .78 ERA
I know reality shouldn't inject here but, anybody who thinks Phil Hughes is a more impressive pitching talent or better PITCHER than Tim is kinda loony IMO. This is to the many previous posters about Hughes, not you pal.
Also if you like Beckett-like minor league dominance you might want to take a gander at Mr. Cole Hamels...bar fights and tons of k's. I'm especially fond of the 10 hits and 36 ks (and 1 walk!) at AAA. Those young aces dont mess around in AAA do they?
by casejud on Dec 8, 2007 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAH~!
What I meant was that Beckett had the best full year of domination that I've ever seen in 2001.
140inn 82 hits 34 bb 203k
Hamels had some awesome numbers, but in terms of sustained dominance, I've just never seen anyone put up the combination of control and Ks like Beckett did in 2001. It was awesome!
Now, that's just minor league stuff, I'm not including Pedro's years, which are the best in the history of the game (that should inspire some response from someone!)
by beastball on Dec 8, 2007 9:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True enough there pal
Yes, my friend, Pedro was and still is, amazing :)
I wonder what HIS minor league numbers loooked like...hmmmm. I'll check!
by casejud on Dec 8, 2007 9:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont have strong feelings one way or the other
The fact is that Joba has better raw stuff then Hughes. Therefore his potential is higher. Its not an insult, no one is saying that Hughes doesnt have good stuff, but hughes throws in the low 90s, topping out at 94,95, and thats a couple of times a game. Thats good stuff, 91-93 is a good fastball, and he has good command of all his pitches.
Anyway, if you think Joba is not in shape, or something, maybe you should read this article from espn the magazine.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3142534
"In mid-November, the 22-year-old punched out a text to Mike Mussina to let Moose know he'd just jogged five miles. The kid challenged the vet: One day next spring, they'll run against each other until one of them cries uncle."
"Around the Yankees clubhouse, Joba's workout ethic is known as "Roger-like." In fact, he plans to visit Clemens this winter and maintains, confidently, that he can go toe-to-toe with The Rocket in the gym. "If he can get me to throw up, it would be the first time," Joba said in September."
by jbluestone on Dec 8, 2007 7:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
control
Hughes has a low 90's fastball that is flat. He can locate it well. That makes it a solid pitch but I'm not sure it's a plus pitch. IMO being a flat pitch kind of balances out the control.
He has a curve that he can locate very well. But it's not a swing and miss type. He'll get some swing and misses. It's a nice pitch. I'd probably give it a slight plus.
He's a good prospect but will never be an ace of the staff.
by pedrophile on Dec 8, 2007 8:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
this
by jbluestone on Dec 8, 2007 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha is this a joke
FB--before his lost 2007 season, Hughes had a 92-93 fastball that topped out at 96, 97 without great control. He topped out at 94 in the bigs last season was consistently 90-92. Some of the 89-91s you saw in September, when healthy, were two-seamers, so no, its not flat. Plus pitch.
CRV--Hughes's curve is arguably his best pitch. It's not loopy--in fact, it has a hard downard break. It is in the low-to-mid 70s, and it causes many swings and misses--a strikeout pitch. Plus pitch.
CHG--Hughes's change is a work in progress. It is average, but it really isn't ready to be considered a set-up pitch. The changeup, as is, is there just to give the hitter a different look, but it should improve through spring training and the regular season.
SLD--Hughes's slider isn't talked about much. Hughes used to throw a nice slider, but, as usual with many Nardi Contreras prospects, it was scrapped in favor of a curveball. He throws it in bullpens, but not much in games. It has good movement, and it is in the 80-83 MPH range--however, it sometimes moves too horizontally. This is a result of not having a great feel for the pitch anymore, as he didn't throw it much last season. He should throw it more often, IMO, as it looks to be an above-average pitch.
Control/Command--Hughes's control is his trademark. When right, Hughes has great control and could likely hit a 1-inch box if challenged--plus control. He also has plus command, but it didn't show last year because he left the ball up due to his leg problems.
There's your Phil Hughes scouting report. Sounds like an ace to me...
by bobbymcnally on Dec 8, 2007 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
scouting:
FB - I did say low 90's. Not sure what you are arguing? His fastball (4-seamer) is flat.
Curve - Most of the k's were strikes watching. This may be more a result of his location dropping the pitch in the top of the zone. It's a solid pitch and I've said so. Just not an excellent. I said it was between solid or plus.
Change - agreed
Slider - agreed that he will have to throw it more for it to be considered much of anything. It has potential to be much more. But for now I won't consider it a plus pitch until he shows he can make it more consistent
This isn't the makings of an ace to me. Sure, he could put it all together an become one. I just don't see it. Most aces have dominant pitches (considered plus plus) and still many with these dominant pitches never become aces.
by pedrophile on Dec 8, 2007 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
almost every scouting report I read stated that when healthy his fast ball sat 92-95 touching 96 and upper 80s with his 2 seamer. Also his curveball is a true power breaking ball that sits in the low 80s and is a strikeout pitch. I have watched almost every game he has pitched because and most of his strikeouts came from his curveball.
Oh and his slider is just as nasty, which used to be is plus plus pitch in highschool.
Now the reason why he sat in the low 90s was because of his hamstring and ankle injury ... he tried to be too careful not to re-injure it.
Once he gains back his confidence with his front leg he will be able to kick it up a notch on his FB.
by Darce on Dec 8, 2007 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
really?
So where am I wrong?
Yeah, most of his k's were from the curve. But most were strikes looking.
Slider - how many sliders did you see him throw to make this decision?
by pedrophile on Dec 8, 2007 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Re:
- you didnt mention the top-out range
- i also saw a lot of swings-and-misses--and isnt it also a testament to his stuff if he gets a lot of k's looking...it means that he just freezes the hitter--and the curves were at the knees fyi
- i saw about 10-15 sliders on different days and places...good enough for me to evaluate
by bobbymcnally on Dec 10, 2007 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
at this point
with Eiland as the PC in 08, hopefully he can regain his '06 AA form (when he was sitting 91-96 with a 1-7 curve). his average FB this year was 92.5. very good but not as hard as in 06. was it his changed delivery? i dont know, but i'm confident that with Eiland he'll have an even better 08 than 07.
joba has a higher ceiling for sure, but he may not reach it. the probability that Hughes reaches his ceiling is greater.
Hughes definitely CAN be an Ace. even this year with a mediocre (88-91 mph) fb he got a LOT of Ks. again, i dont know if that fb was bc of the injury or a change in mechanics. but if he can do all the aforementioned things without his best stuff, what can he do with it? we'll see...
by Travis G on Dec 8, 2007 10:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good point
Fully healthy and with his pitching coach to keep his mechanics right all of next season, things look good for Hughes.
by Stephcaflowne on Dec 9, 2007 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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