Pettitte Back to Yankees

Good timing

for the Yanks as they have the "deadline" for Santana today. Just a tad less leverage for the Twins.

Send your top 50-100 prospects to slurveone@yahoo.com!!!

by slurve on Dec 3, 2007 12:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hit enter too soon..

I wouldn't call the dealine a bad move what-so-ever. I think it's a great move. When you have offered all that you're willing to offer, why fuck around?

Send your top 50-100 prospects to slurveone@yahoo.com!!!

by slurve on Dec 3, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

#1

The yanks still need a true #1 to lead their rotation, and the addition of Pettite does not make that need any less.

by JFP on Dec 3, 2007 12:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I know why the Yanks set the deadline, if they actually did. However, it's only Dec 3rd. It's not like it's late in the off-season. My guess is that part of the urgency is on our part because we are all on the edge of our seats waiting to see what happens. If I were the Twins, I'd take my time to get it right. If they're going to trade him this winter, February is as good as now. He may even fetch more after a couple of #4 starters get 6 years at $12m per.....Perhaps the Yankees are trying to stay ahead of that.

by my dixie wrecked on Dec 3, 2007 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

timing

yeah, it's early in the offseason, but on the other hand, they can't enjoy being in a constant bidding war against the red sox. the twins lose a TON of leverage if either of those teams takes their offer off the table.

by jpahk on Dec 3, 2007 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

they'll still cave

No chance the the Twins trade Santana to the Red Sox because the Yankees weren't willing to match their offer.

The Twins may still accept the Yankees current offer, but there's no way Santana goes to the Red Sox.

by Galt on Dec 3, 2007 1:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

based on...?

What exactly? The Twins HAVE a ton of young starting pitching, including a better arm than either the Sox or Yanks can offer in Liriano. What they need are infielders and a CFer. Everyone gets all excited about the pitching prospects, but that's not what they need. Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson/Bowden and another prospect addresses their needs more than Hughes, Cabrera and Gonzalez/Kennedy does.
Heck... Lester, Crisp, Lowrie addressed their needs better.
The Twins also sound (note 'sound') kind of pissed at the Yankees, specifically Hank. If you're pissed off at a team enough to suggest tampering charges why would you make a trade with that team?

I don't think the Pettitte un-retirement changes anything. He's still old and the likelihood of him returning next season is even lower, they still need Santana and the Twins (and everyone else) knows it.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Melky

is neither better than Crisp or Ellsbury.

He is offensively maybe at par with Crisp (when Crisp was hurt the last two years with various hand injuries), but is nowhere near as good defensively. This isn't fantasy baseball. Crisp is an elite fielder.

Ellsbury is also an extremely good fielder, much much better than Melky. Ellsbury is also a better fielder than Melky

Ellsbury > Crisp > Melky

by Galt on Dec 3, 2007 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wow

that is almost funny; telling someone to get rid of anti-Yankee feelings yet write that about Melky. Mini-Beltran? Most Yankee fans do not even believe this

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ha ha

Oh man, THAT is the funniest thing I've read in a long time, it's like Christmas came 23 days early. melky is a mini-beltran? How can you possibly claim that? there were FIFTEEN better CF hitters this season than Melky. His defense is good, but it isn't great, and definitely not great enough to make up for his offensive shortcomings.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ellsbury

is 24..what makes you think Melky is better? All Melky has shown is an average CF'er at best statiscally in a park that heavily gives left handers advantage with the short RF porch.

You may not be a Yanks fan, but you gotta break that man-crush on Melky

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No

You got into mom and dad's liquor cabinet and spiked the eggnog. Shouldn't you be in school?

Coco Crisp is the single best OFer in baseball right now.
Melky was outhit by 15 everyday CFers this season (by OPS). 16 last season. He was 17th in Runs Created/27. He MIGHT have the speed to steal 20 bases in a season. He doesn't have a projectable body for 20 hr's though. He'll be lucky to hit 15.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Engel Beltre

must be the next Ken Griffey Jr. I am taking age into account. He is only 17

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

hw must be right

after all he is 17. I compared a little leaguer in my hometown to Hank Aaron because at age 12 he hit 2 HR's over that 210 ft fence. Better get him in fantasy keeper league drafts now. At worst with that power he is the next Melky Cabrera :)

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

nope...

but neither is yours. Personal fantasies is not analysis of a particular player's potential

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am

taking age into account. Melky though seems to me to be tapped out on his ability. You're assuming that just because he's young that he'll improve drastically. The thing is, the tools and physicality aren't there to back that up.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

based on...?

I'm starting to think you're just pulling our leg, having a laugh. You haven't provided anything to back up your claims.
Anything.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure you are.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

Uhm, how is Melky better than Crisp or Ellsbury? melky has, offensively, been about even with Crisp (you do know Melky has been in the bottom half among CFers offensively right?) and Crisp flat out kicks his ass defensively. Melky is NOT the stud Yankee fans think he is.
Numbers wise Hughes has NOT been that much better than lester. Yes, he's been better, but not by much (i won't go into those numbers AGAIN).
Then consider that the Yankees are offering a piece of shit like Gonzalez as their extra piece while the Sox are offering two very good prospects in Lowrie (the Twins need a SS) and Masterson or Bowden.
The Sox offer isn't just better, it matches up with Minnesota's needs better.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

FAN-tastic

This is Fantastic, keep these comments coming because you couldn't be more entertaining (or more wrong) if you tried.

Let's see some numbers to prove your Melky isbetter than Coco Crisp claims. Come on, you must have some...

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Show me

Show me the stats. Cabrera had a whopping .006 edge in OPS (Crisp had a higher OBP) meanwhile Crisp stole 15 more bases with 1 more caught stealing with, again, FAR superior defense (as in, not even close).

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mini-Beltran

Beltran: .276 ave, .353 OBP, .525 SLG, 23 SB, career 850 OPS

Cabrera: .273 ave, .327 OBP, .391 SLG, 13 SB, career 728 OPS

Looks more like a micro-Beltran, to me.

"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day." - Calvin

by RVachon on Dec 3, 2007 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

man crushes are different than statistical proof my friend

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Uhm

Just the fact that he's on the Yankees gives him a 50-50 chance of getting on an All-Star team. Yankee fans slobber and drool all over him and he's a below average OFer. If he was even slightly above average it would be "an outrage!" every time he's not selected to an AS team.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Waitign

I'm still waiting for those stats that prove Melky was better than Crisp this season.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't mind thinking Cabrera better OFFENSIVELY

than Crisp..but defensively? Keep dreaming! And my main gripe was you thinking he is better than Ellsbury, where clearly you have given no evidence to prove he is

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ellsbury

Yes, people are overhyped abotu him by his season debut, but that's about the only intelligent thing you've said. he's still a better player than Cabrera, offensively and defensively. Even Yankee fans will acknowledge that.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

how?

show me the difference statistically? Cabrera has the edge in power and barely, but in every other category it is the other way around. Show me differently.

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

no he is not

PLEASE show me proof, and proof not being that you sleep in a Melky Cabrera jersey

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Proof

He doesn't have proof. He's a flamer pulling shit. Just look at his post history. Somebody get MrKupe to delete this turd.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And what

has Melky shown? His numbers are no better than DeJesus. Horrible average and he has had 2 seasons to prove himself. Ellsbury has not. Melky's minor league numbers lacks any nunbrs to prove your point either. Minimal power, no .300 BA full season and lack of real speed.

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=2103

Again, I see this like nothing but a man-crush. You have proven me nothing. I clearly believe Ellsbury is overrated, but less so than your take on Melky.

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the bull case on Melky

would be a bit more compelling if he actually improved from '06 to '07.

You see, guys like Beltran, and other multiple all stars become such because they improve when they are young.

If someone isn't improving greatly from 21 to 22, then what's to say it will even happen? His SLG remained flat, and his plate discipline regressed. He had a worse 2007 than 2006, he didn't add any power. Why (other than "he's young") should anyone believe he's going to grow from a .715 OPS guy with less than 10 homers to even an above average offensive outfielder?

And by every measure Crisp and Ellsbury's defense dwarve's Melky's

by Galt on Dec 3, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

um, no

please cite any facts. anywhere. One.

Melky may have a better arm - Ellsbury's is especially weak, but his range does not compare. By any measure (other than "I'm a Yankee fan so all Yankee players are great")

by Galt on Dec 3, 2007 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok...

This guy HAS to be a spammer/flamer because THIS comment is so flat out wrong that I can't imagine the depths of the stupidity of someone who would actually believe Cabrera is actually a better fielder than Crisp.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I do not mind you

I just think Melky Cabrera should have much better things to do than posting on prospect blogs

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You're a fake

And anyone who reads you're 'argument' can see that.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ha

Only a fool would give a crap what some anonymous person on the other side of the computer screen thinks about them.

I come here to talk about baseball, discuss prospects and argue about who's better. That's not even close to what you're doing. You have some ridiculous man-crush on Melky that defies any logical defense or explanation or you're just here to screw around and induce people into asinine arguments.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

except

he hasn't performed "exceptionally well". There is no valid reason to make that statement. He's done good for his age, but he hasn't even been a league average outfielder for two years.

And more importantly, he didn't improve from his first year to his second. You can't keep throwing out this Beltran comp when the biggest thing is that Beltran actually improved his first couple years.

Well that, and the fact that Melky has nowhere near the speed of Beltran (and never will), isn't especially good defensively, won't ever hit 40 homers in his life. In fact he likely won't hit 40 homers in the next 3 years combined. Nor does he have the plate discipline of Beltran (and in fact it's regressed)

by Galt on Dec 3, 2007 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

insult

I didn't start to insult you until i realized you're a flaming turd. You don't know anything about baseball, or rather, aren't here to discuss baseball rationally. The proof is in the pudding, all you've done is make ridiculous claims that you either can't or won't back up about Cabrera.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree

I love people that disagree with me, otherwise I'd have no one to argue with. But you're not disagreeing, you're either the most poorly informed baseball fan I've ever talked to (Cabrera a better fielder than Crisp? Ridiculous on more levels than can be counted) or you're some stupid kid just looking to create an argument and screw around.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I say

that Mike Lowell is better than Alex Rodriguez.

Agree to disagree?

by Galt on Dec 3, 2007 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll agree with that

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Gosh

Gee, I kinda feel bad...
Oops, no, that was the tacos I had for lunch.

Since, however, it is the Christmas season, here are a few tips for you.
1. If you're going to make an argument, you better put some stats or at least scouting reports behind them to back them up. You have had none of this until people pushed you several times to produce some and they were very, very weak.
1a. Don't use batting average as a statistical basis for an argument. BA is greatly overrated by the general baseball public and the people here all know better.

When you make that argument with stats, before you click submit, check to make sure there aren't any obvious holes in it (your arguments haven't had holes so much as there hasn't been enough substance to them to put a hole in), For example ntoing the 2 homerun difference between Crisp and Cabrera but ignoring the 15 stolen base difference.
Watch out for hyperbole. Don't get so caught up in trying to make your case that you start making ridiculous claims that are obviously wrong (i.e. Cabrera isn't anywhere close to Crisp's class defensively. No scout or stat will back that up. Crisp is better, by a lot).

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Congrats

All you did was talk about the same stats. In summary, Melky had an OPS of .006 better than Crisp (that's 6/10ths of 1%) and ignored the fact that Crisp stole twice as many bases while getting caught at about half the rate that Cabrera did. Roto geeks get overly hyped about SB's, but in this case, it really does make a difference.
In 21 fewer plate appearances, Crisp (279) had 10 more true total bases (Walks + Hits + 2B + (3B times 2) + (HR times 3) + SB's) than Cabrera(269). Crisp's additional walks and ability to steal bases easily make up for Cabrera's small edge in batting average and Slugging percentage.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You're an idiot.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

WB LaGoofy

We missed ya

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

by WayneCampbell05 on Dec 3, 2007 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Who

I am is of no importance. Though this could be an ideal place for BJB to interject some of his high falooting conscienceness stuff. :) Mahalo

Matt

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

by WayneCampbell05 on Dec 3, 2007 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

actually....

.....I think it would be more fun to argue this one from the Buddhist perspective on individualism.

but that's just my take.

by bleedjaxblue on Dec 3, 2007 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree/disagree

I would agree and disagree on this. I think that Cabrera has more value than Crisp does at this point considering age, some projectability (good but not great), and cost, although Crisp is not that expensive. If I'm the Twins, I like Cabrera more than Crisp for the longer term.

OTOH, Ellsbury has the most value. Even though he's older than Cabrera, he's got more talent and is just simply a better player at this point. It's Yankee Kool Aid to say otherwise. Ellsbury's probably a touch overrated right now, but he's good.

I'd say Ellsbury >> Cabrera > Crisp as far as trade value is concerned. Of course, none of them compare to Hughes or Buchholz, and to a lesser extent, Lester.

"fortunately, scouts believe Gomez has enough tools to replace one of his appendages a la Edward Scissorhands" - bleedjaxblue, 7/5/07

by jc3 on Dec 3, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I never wanted to deal for Santana

and this makes me want to do it even less. Walk away. There's no reason to let Boston and Minnesota extort you.

Todd Frazier for President

by FrazierFan on Dec 3, 2007 1:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Go for it

I'd LOVE for the Yankees to walk away. Then the Sox move Lester, Crisp and Lowrie for Santana.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

as evidenced by your comments above

you really are looking at this through Sox colored glasses. The Twins would laugh at that offer. It's Lowrie + Buchholz/Crisp or Lester/Ellsbury. Nothing less will get it done. Crisp is awful offensively, that + age/price makes him less valuable than Melky to the Twins.

Todd Frazier for President

by FrazierFan on Dec 3, 2007 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Argh!

I don't care who Minnesota trades Santana to; I just want to get it over with already. This whole saga is starting to annoy me as much as the overwrought David/Maddy Moonlighting coupling. There have been no less than 10 threads in the last 50 discussing who should get Santana and why. Fantasy league opening threads were banned for less ...

BTW, the Yankees "deadline" is nothing but another negotiating tactic. It hasn't been but a few weeks since their proclamation that they wouldn't sign A-Rod if he opted out of his contract. If the Twins were stupid enough to accept their "final" offer Thursday, I very much doubt Cashman would say no thanks. Mahalo

Matt

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

by WayneCampbell05 on Dec 3, 2007 2:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera vs. Crisp

I just love how people are so passionate about a couple of OFers who couldn't slug their way out of a wet paper bag. If I ever get to the point where I am extolling the virtues of a player who couldn't slug .400, someone please put me out of my misery.

by NMUWildcat027 on Dec 3, 2007 3:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I still don't get

how all of these teams are giving the Twins all this leverage. The Twins are the ones in the hard spot. They either trade Santana and get something back or he walks. They have pretty much no chance at resigning him. All the teams looking at getting him should just say, "Look we know he will leave after the year, you know he will leave. I am not going to give you all of our best propects when we know you won't be able to resign him. Either take what you can get or we will wait until the offseason and take our chances with him then."

by nyy601 on Dec 3, 2007 4:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Because

None of the teams negotiating with Minnesotta are the Twins only trading partner. Its not like the Yanks can say "you trade him to me for these prospects or you keep him and let him walk next year" - the twins can always choose to take an offer from another team.

by Locke000 on Dec 3, 2007 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yup

And the Sox have the depth to deal for Santana while the Yankees can't afford to let them get him. If Santana goes somewhere other than NY or Boston, Sox fans won't exactly be heartbroken. I'd be thrilled to keep Lester Buchholz and Ellsbury. I'd also be thrilled to get Johan in any of the deals mentioned.

Honestly, I don't think there's any chance the Yankees get him. They have less to offer, don't match up as well position-wise, don't have Boston's depth (the Sox already have 6 solid SP for 2008) and they've pissed off management.

If the Twins say "screw you, you're offers aren't enough" then boston and NY shrug their shoulders and agree to meet again on the field of battle when Santana becomes a free agent, this time only surrendering a single first round draft pick in compensation.

This is me being polite.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 3, 2007 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And

maybe 20-40MIL they made not have had to pay if they own exclusive negotiating rights.

If Santana goes out in the open market, who is to say he does not get $175+MIL over 8-10 yrs? That is why Santana is in no hurry and has the ultimate power

by dlpme77 on Dec 3, 2007 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thats what I'm saying

the other teams are giving the leverage the Twins don't have. The Twins are basically asking for 3 top young players for a guy they will lose for one year. They probably don't deserve that, even though he is the best pitcher in the game. But they might end up getting it because a certain two teams keep trying to one up each other. I personally could wait another year for Santana and pay him extra money if it meant keeping Hughes and the other guys who will have to go.

by nyy601 on Dec 3, 2007 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

That's the reason why the price is what it is. The rivalry that frankly I'm getting sick of. Otherwise, they'd be nuts to give up Hughes, Buchholz, etc. PLUS pay him $25 mil for 5-6 years.

If I'm running the Yankees, I wouldn't put Hughes in the deal. If they want to make a deal with Boston involving lesser players like Lester and Crisp, so be it, it's the Twins getting hosed, not the Yankees. I'd go with what I have or maybe get a guy like Sheets on the "cheap".

"fortunately, scouts believe Gomez has enough tools to replace one of his appendages a la Edward Scissorhands" - bleedjaxblue, 7/5/07

by jc3 on Dec 3, 2007 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Melky > Kemp

Personally, I don't know that I would move on Santana as the Yankees if the price keeps going up. The reason is because they are swimming prospects and I am frankly not in love with Johan. I've mentioned this before, but I just don't <3 him as much as most any other person does.

That having been said, if I'm Boston and I could go Beckett-Santana-Matsuzaka-Lester-Schilling, that's...I mean, there HAS to be a ring there over the next year or two. I think the price is just as ridiculous for Boston, but they're in a great position to create a dynasty with this move, and if I were them, I'd take this shot. As a baseball fan, I hope that rotation happens.

It'd be so cool!!! (yeah, fanboyism)

P.S. As a total aside, I think the Mike Greenberg/Josh Elliot Sportscenter combo is by far the most tolerable.

by GuyinNY on Dec 3, 2007 6:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs