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Prospecting as investing?

I'd like to have a discussion with everyone about what a prospect list ACTUALLY means to you, and what priorities you look at when you rank players.  This may seem like a very silly question, but I think it is what ultimately drives a lot of the discussion on the community prospect rankings, whether people are aware of it or not.

To me, my prospect ranking list basically says "If I had to place money on the combination of risk and value for these players, this is what order that risk/value combination would look like"

In other words, I look at it like any investment

I made an analogy over the weekend to JP Morgan or any other investing firm, and the more I think about it, the more it holds true.  Imagine if JP Morgan were go come out and upgrade a bunch of Penny stocks as "must buys" with the idea that there is much more to gain from these Penny stocks than there is from blue chippers, whose value may be constant but they are likely not going to explode

Sometimes I feel like our prospect lists are putting Penny stocks at the top to see which one will explode, knowing that for each one that does there are 7 or 8 that will implode.  If we do it with prospects, we can always say "See!  I told you (XYZ rookie league player with 30 Ab's but huge tools) would be awesome!".  But if we did it this way with our money, we would never say "Phew, I lost 70% of my portfolio's value, but at least I got that Joe and Bill's automotive right on the dot!"

So what is a prospect list for you?  Trying to find the guys with the highest reward?  A combination of risk and reward?  

Poll
How do you treat prospect rankings?
Other
5 votes
I treat them like an investment; there has to be a balance between risk and reward
59 votes
I try to hit a home run: guys with the highest upside at the top of the list
12 votes
I weigh upside more than risk, but risk is in there somewhere
52 votes
I want a roster full of below average players: risk more important than upside
4 votes

132 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 19 comments

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poll options
I think "I weigh upside more than risk, but risk is in there somewhere". But I think that's because some people who would be categorized by others as "I try to hit a home run: guys with the highest upside at the top of the list" see themselves as "I weigh upside more than risk, but risk is in there somewhere".

I voted option #1. A balance of risk and reward. I will also add that I only value what will happen with the prospect between the next 6 to 8 years. I don't give a crap if XYZ prospect is still going strong 13 years from now. I'll find plenty of new players between now and then. There is no reason to think I'm going to have these investments/prospects forever or their current MLB team will either.

by McLovin on Dec 19, 2007 4:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great analogy!
Prospecting is like investing!

But every investor has a different appetite for risk. Some like a lot of risk, lot of reward. Some like little risk, little reward.

How we balance risk is really what you are trying to get at.

If you're 20 years old you might have 50% of your portfolio in high risk stocks knowing if you hit on one or two of those, twenty years from now you'll be golden. If you're 6o, you're probably looking to move into more secure securities.

We talk about there being different approaching to building teams -- the stars and scrubs team vs. the all average team for instance -- but I think there are different ways to build farm systems. Some look for that one superstar player. Some take less risk but rely on that steady flow of average to slightly above average player.

The best systems balance both. They take some calculated risks but also try to keep a balance of players that will perform at an average or near average level.

That being said. It's always harder to find the superstar on the free talent market or even in free agency.

So, I think its best to try to balance with a little bit of leaning towards high risk/high rewards players because high reward players are so much harder to find.

by Montreal97 on Dec 19, 2007 5:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1
.... versatility is key.

by daveh33 on Dec 19, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1
Especially this part:

"That being said. It's always harder to find the superstar on the free talent market or even in free agency."

The investing analogy only goes so far because of this.  Prospecting for a major league team should be like investing in the stock market when you know you've got a nice solid nest egg earning decent returns.  

Except for a few of the bottom feeder teams, most ML teams should be able to sign replacement level or slightly above average players on the FA market.  To my mind, the best model for building a competitive team is to develop superstars from within while signing complementary pieces from without.  Sure, if you're the Yanks, you can sign superstars away from their original teams.  But teams like that are the exception, not the rule.

And, viewed in that light, upside should be the primary concern, with risk as a secondary factor.

by Locke000 on Dec 19, 2007 5:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is also true with baseball cards
Like I have some Jay Bruce and Colby Rasmus rookies and I bought some decent ones off of ebay and if they blowup I may sell one but I plan on keeping most of their rookies.  I have 3 colby rasmus rookies and two bruce rookies.

by Bravesin07 on Dec 19, 2007 5:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?
Are baseball cards still a big deal, like really popular and everything?  I know when I was a youngster they were a big deal, and my brother used to drag me to card shows, but I hadn't kept up with the card market.  I figure with the technology explosion, they wouldn't be as big a deal.  Clue me in please.

by JFP on Dec 19, 2007 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well with the technology explosion
...they just keep finding ways to make the cards more high dollar. everything is shiny, and super rare, and autographed, and patches galore.

by daveh33 on Dec 19, 2007 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess
Its too late to sell some of my old rookie cards, I would think ones like Bonds' and McGuire's are not worth very much now.  I should have sold them 3 or 4 years ago.  Oh well.

by JFP on Dec 19, 2007 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yep
the RC game is all about hype... McGwire is nothing compared to a LaPorta right now

by daveh33 on Dec 19, 2007 5:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Old Rookies
The way to get value for those cards is to grade them.  BGS and PSA hold the greatest value, as they have more stringent grading techniques.  Personally, if I was selling my collection, I would grade anything that looks like it is Gem to the naked eye.  I'm more of a collector (I have about a million, I know, it's sick) though.  To make money, you have to sell up and coming prospects and burdgeoning superstars at their peaks, just like stocks.  You also have to buy low, which isn't always easy because you have to be really objective and analyze trends and how likely the perceived value is to bounce back.  

by killa on Dec 19, 2007 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right now is a great time to buy King Felix low
When he breaksout then you will earn some nice money.

by Bravesin07 on Dec 19, 2007 7:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's like me
I've got about 100 Chris Marrero cards. When he blows up in about mid May, I will be a wealthy man:)

by rwperu34 on Dec 19, 2007 7:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Real life perspective
I try to look at it as a real GM would look at it.  I would follow the Braves model, of trying to find a balance.  They take a lot of high upside guys, but they fill it out well with lower risk guys from JUCO's.  They also take risks on guys whose stock has slipped a little, the perfect example is Schafer.

by JFP on Dec 19, 2007 5:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Prospect Lists/Fantasy Leagues
This doesn't entirely relate to prospect lists, and is certainly not the way a GM would look at his MLB franchise, but I think an interesting way to look at prospecting for the purpose of a keeper league is to focus in on players with a chance to rise in the upcoming season.

I'm not even talking about players necessarily taking a legitimate step forward, but just improving in the eyes of the general prospecting community enough for their value to increase. Then, you sell high on the prospect. I'm talking about guys like Towles, Headley, etc. who prior to the 2007 season were C+/B-/low B types for the most part, and though they still aren't viewed as star players, they're suddenly locks for top 100 lists.

What I find intriguing about this approach is that by this logic, you should always trade your highest draft picks and simply invest in a bunch of risers with the idea of dealing them when their value peaks. High draft picks would generally be avoided because the value of that draft pick in most cases will not be surpassed by an already excellent prospect taking a further step forward.

Just my two cents. I haven't entirely thought this through, but I think as long as 90% of owners would consider this insane, it might just actually work.

http://rswanzey.blogspot.com

by rswanzey on Dec 19, 2007 5:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My perspective on building a team
If I were a GM, here is how I would build a team:

When it comes to the draft I would be drafting high ceiling guys. I am a person who is in favor of high risk/high reward players. Like everyone has been saying, these players are harder to find and do flame out more often, but when you get a good collection of them, you have got yourself a solid core.
I also believe in a draft of 50 rounds, there are enough rounds to find those players that slip in the draft with higher ceilings or those players that turn into solid 3 star prospects. I like the Tigers approach to drafting, although you dont necessarily need to take the highest price guy, but I would definately pay the money for the top pitcher in the class at pick 27 or 28.
I am against taking "safer" lower ceiling picks like Jeremy Sowers and others. I would set aside a budget of about 8 or 9 million on the draft.

I would also be putting serious money towards Latin America. I dont think I need to explain, but I can find a lot of gems and superstars over there along with some other 3 star prospect. I wouldnt be paying 2 million for these player, but I would budget abot 2 or 3 million total on the international field.

To get this 10-12 million, I would budget accordingly and not sign player like aaron rowand if Im the giants. They are not competing now and that money could be used to go crazy on the draft and international market. This is why it makes me sick when people say "well I understand the Giants took Jackson Williams because they were saving money and had five other picks." With those 6 picks I would have nabbed porcello and other high ceiling high priced guys. Its a small price to pay when you end up with these guys on your big league club. If they flame out, well then we lose 7 million from porcello, but aaron rowand and zito are still making 170 million.

Long term, if I have a small budget, that is fine. I do not mind what the marlins do. I disagree with trading Cabrera, he is a "build your team around player." I could live with giving him 7 years - $140 million. I would also lock up hanley ramirez long term. The rest may be tradeable when they get too expensive. The only way I would have traded cabrera is if I got Miller, Maybin, and Porcello. I would throw in Willis and Gregg and maybe even volstad or thompson to even it out. But that is the only way you are getting my cornerstone player.

That is my analysis, I gues I should consider writing a book next time. Feel free to critique, tell me where Im wrong and why, and also where you agree.

by FishHead on Dec 19, 2007 5:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think you hit the nail on the head
To continue with the investment theme, diversify, diversify, diversity. Spreading your resources (money, talent evaluators) gives you a broader range from which to find value. Even having a diversified "portfolio," i.e. a mix of players with high upside, or low risk, etc.

And someone else said it earlier, it may not net you a superstar, but it may net you a highly touted prospect that the big club uses as a trade chip to get a valuable piece for the stretch run.

As far as the community list goes, I probably value risk-averse players (no prospect is without risk, of course, but I mean players who appear to be "major league-ready") higher than high-upside guys who are very young or very low in the minors. I don't doubt that many guys ranked below him are better than Joey Votto, but Votto has a greater chance of contributing on a major league team at the present moment.

by El Duq of Hurl on Dec 19, 2007 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

NPV
This is how much I look at prospecting like investing. I try and come up with a net present value of future expected value during the team's window of control. I put more of a weight on superstar outcomes, for obvious reasons. Then I ranks the playahs.

As an example, Cameron Maybin has the highest ceiling of any player still in the minors. On top of that, he has got a very high floor, since there is close to zero chance he won't be at least a usefull starter. Even though he's still over a year away (on a normal development curve), his value sky high. Heck, I might have just talked myself into putting him at #1!

by rwperu34 on Dec 19, 2007 6:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting diary
I was thinking of posting something similar soon, comparing three hypothetical position players - one close to being a MLB regular with a low ceiling, one who just completed AA and has great tools but is lacking performance, and one a teenager who could potentially turn into a star.

I think the community prospect lists are way overrating the first two kinds of hitters, and ought to be more open-minded towards the phenoms.

Todd Frazier for President

by FrazierFan on Dec 19, 2007 8:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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