Actual Mitchell Report (in pdf)
Here's the link:
http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
it's 409 pages, I think I'll wait and get the cliff's notes version from the internet but for those of you that have the time...enjoy.
Frankly, I'm not sure whether I care or not. I see both sides of the argument. Just think it's more interesting than anything and I hope this report sheds some light on the subject.
0 recs |
63 comments
Comments
nobody big who hadn't been named/suspected before
No Arod. No Pujols. No Schilling.
by Galt on Dec 13, 2007 2:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I was shocked
by mtk52983 on Dec 13, 2007 2:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
One helluva...
by Boxkutter on Dec 13, 2007 2:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The list.
That list does NOT include Derrick Turnbow (a semi-big name, though a known one), whose positive test in the Olympics is mentioned. I haven't had time to find any more like that yet.
Most disappointing to me was the lack of amusing names... Fernando Vina probably tops that list, with honorable mentions going to Kevin Young, Nook Logan, Gary Bennett Jr., and Darren Holmes.
It includes a lot more hitters than pitchers, by my eyeball judgment, which is mildly surprising to me.
It's certainly not the be-all, end-all document that many (including Mr. Alan H. Selig himself I believe) were hoping for, but it's yet another data point showing that the vast majority of steroid-users weren't/aren't stars... the drugs don't just make people into good players. Most intelligent people already realize that of course, but "intelligent people" doesn't seem to include the mainstream media commentators whose opinions feed the general public perception of the issue.
by delomir on Dec 13, 2007 2:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
amusing
by wily mo on Dec 13, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol...
by Boxkutter on Dec 13, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vina
by jumanjifan01 on Dec 13, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vina
by jonk1982 on Dec 13, 2007 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Vina's on there
by lenred on Dec 13, 2007 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm?
I was just hoping for more Ecksteins and Tyners, basically. Semi-famous bit players with little to no home run output.
by delomir on Dec 13, 2007 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nook Logan?
by Brickhaus on Dec 13, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good question
by delomir on Dec 13, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
David Justice
by count sutton on Dec 13, 2007 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In case you didn't feel like showing up
Lenny Dykstra, David Segui, Larry Bigbie, Brian Roberts, Jack Cust, Tim Laker, Josias Manzanillo, Todd Hundley, Mark Carreon, Hal Morris, Matt Franco, Rondell White, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Chuck Knoblauch, Jason Grimsley, Gregg Zaun, David Justice, F.P. Santangelo, Glenallen Hill, Mo Vaughn, Denny Neagle, Ron Villone, Ryan Franklin, Chris Donnels, Todd Williams, Todd Pratt, Kevin Young, Cody McKay, Kent Mercker, Adam Piatt, Miguel Tejada, Jason Christiansen, Mike Stanton, Stephen Randolph, Jerry Hairson Jr., Paul Lo Duca, Adam Riggs, Bart Miadich, Kevin Brown, Eric Gagné, Mike Bell, Matt Herges, Gary Bennett, Jim Parque, Brendan Donnelly, Chad Allen, Jeff Williams, Howie Clark, Nook Logan, Rick Ankiel, David Bell, Paul Byrd, Jose Canseco, Jay Gibbons, Troy Glaus, Jose Guillen, Darren Holmes, Gary Matthews Jr., John Rocker, Scott Schoeneweis, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams, Steve Woodard, Marvin Bernard, Barry Bonds, Bobby Estalella, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Benito Santiago, Gary Sheffield, aaaaand Randy Velarde.
by drjayphd on Dec 13, 2007 2:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
report
People are saying that Bonds should be kept out of the Hall of Fame because of steroids. The same should go for Clemens and any of these other guys, too, if that is the criteria.
by John Sickels on Dec 13, 2007 3:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
My problem with Bonds has been and...
It was always so interesting to read leader boards because it would inspire me to research these different players and the era in which they played.
To a certain extent, Bonds ruined that, not by playing the game better than anyone else, but by being a liar and a cheat. He's not the only liar or the only cheater, but he is the only cheating liar who is the reigning champ of several different baseball records. And for that I can't forgive Bonds and I hope he isn't allowed into the hall of fame.
I'll admit, there are other cheaters already in the hall, but that doesn't make allowing Bonds in right.
I wish I could sit with my kid and pour over baseball stats, talk about Williams, Maris, Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, and all those other guys and not have to talk about Bonds, McGwire or Sosa. But it is what it is, they have ruined a part of baseball that I loved, which was it's history. And that can't be restored.
by beastball on Dec 13, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and Clemens is up there too...
by beastball on Dec 13, 2007 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the other difference
by Galt on Dec 13, 2007 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say he was
by GuyinNY on Dec 13, 2007 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
Clemens last few years with Red Sox were pretty mediocre in aggregate. If you replace his last 10 years of performance with 3-5 performance more in line with his last few years of (non chemically enhanced regression) 3.50-4.00+ ERA, he goes from being a 350 win 4,500 K guy with a lifetime 3.15 ERA to a 230 win, 3,200 K guy with a lifetime 3.50 ERA, which is a step below Burt Blyleven. Now the CY Youngs likely would have pushed him over the top, but if he went from being pretty dominant until 30, and then continued his regression he would clearly not be the icon he is now.
I picked '96 for Clemens because that's when he went through his "miracle" resurgence.
After '96, Bonds was still a 300/300 guy with a lifetime .950 OPS and 6 top 5 MVP seasons (3 he won, and he should have won 4 in a row)
by Galt on Dec 13, 2007 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ehhh...
3 Cy Young Awards (5 Top-5 Cy Young seasons)
1 MVP (2 Top-3 MVP seasons)
4 ERA Titles (3 in a row, 7 top 5 finishes)
2 Win Titles (6 Top-4 Finishes)
1 IP Crown (7 Top-6 IP Seasons)
3 K Titles (9 Top 4 Finishes, including 7 in a row)
2 CG Titles (8 Top-4 Finishes)
Led the league in Shutouts every year from 1986-1992 except 1989
5x All-Star, including starter in 1986
would have been more than enough to get him in. And that MVP as a pitcher is a REALLY big plus in his favor.
by GuyinNY on Dec 13, 2007 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
did Clemens ever publicly state
I have a problem with liars in these contexts....
by SLK on Dec 13, 2007 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not yet...
by bl on Dec 13, 2007 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't change
Bonds will get in as will Clemens. Some of the tweeners are the only guys that will be hurt by this ultimately.
by slurve on Dec 13, 2007 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Barry's a special case (along with McGwire and Sosa) because he used roids to put his name in the record books at the expense of guys like Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron and Roger Maris, who did it clean.
by Locke000 on Dec 13, 2007 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not too concerned about Bonds or Clemens
This wasn't mentioned on any of the coverage I saw yesterday, but it's the first thing I thought about.
by count sutton on Dec 14, 2007 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Reason 104,295 to hate the Yankees
by fartballs on Dec 13, 2007 3:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
They make-up almost 20% Coincidence?
by fartballs on Dec 13, 2007 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Riiight
by OldProspects on Dec 13, 2007 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nice
And my IP trace of you shows you are posting from lower Manhattan anyway. Don't be a hater.
by Galt on Dec 13, 2007 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
by bl on Dec 13, 2007 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
George Mitchell
No way he or his staff pulled any punches.
by Yakker on Dec 13, 2007 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because
by FrazierFan on Dec 13, 2007 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
YUP
by goalieguy on Dec 13, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by kaisertown on Dec 13, 2007 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Big source
- Kirk Radomski (mets clubhouse attendant)
- Macnamee (Clemens personal trainer he brought with him from toronto to the yanks)
by Locke000 on Dec 13, 2007 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I loathe the Yankees
If you want to hate the Yankees, you only need one reason: They have no souls.
by RVachon on Dec 13, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the other thing
Of course that didn't stop the angelic Red Sox from trading for Gagne last year.
God got them back.
by Galt on Dec 13, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He sure did
by RVachon on Dec 13, 2007 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets be honest ,
People love clemens and were stubborn to believe that he took the stuff, while people hate bonds and wanted to expose him any type of way.
In a way, Bonds is really unlucky here. Not to make Bonds a victim because he isn't but he really took all the bullets for Sosa, Clemens and McGwire here.
by NYYLover1000 on Dec 13, 2007 3:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I
by Galt on Dec 13, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It really comes to how much like you in this world
Bonds is being killed by everybody (right fully so) and people writing books about him and being the poster for steriods which was so unfair.
But hey, people love Clemens so they sugar coat everything he did, just like the same people who sugar coat (us fans included) the 98 hr chase.
It's Ironic that in 98, the few people who knew McGwire and Sosa were jucing was Mr. Bonds
Really this was fucked up man, they basically let Bonds be the shield for almost everything that dealt with this situation.
It was almost like Bud or anybody was saying "as long are people bonds and not the people we like, we are cool". Funny world uh?
by NYYLover1000 on Dec 13, 2007 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah.
by wily mo on Dec 13, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
David Segui
he comes off as the "steroid user zero" of the report....
by SLK on Dec 13, 2007 3:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Segui
by waka25 on Dec 13, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing
It's similar to trying to root out your family tree, but a great grandparent can't remember anything anymore...
by SLK on Dec 13, 2007 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not exactly
by Brickhaus on Dec 13, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I Always Knew Cody McKay was a Juicer
by Dfarth on Dec 13, 2007 4:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ah Baseball Reference
http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/mitchell-report-players.shtml
by Brickhaus on Dec 13, 2007 4:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Gary Bennet
by colinadam on Dec 13, 2007 4:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So
by nyy601 on Dec 13, 2007 4:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
another way to look at it is
by Galt on Dec 13, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sad Day
by Yakker on Dec 13, 2007 6:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not a big deal?
Clemens = arguably the best pitcher ever
Hitters like Griffey looked to be one of the best hitters ever. But injuries slowed him down.
Pitchers like Maddux looked to be one of the best pitchers ever. But age slowed him down.
This is true in every generation.
Until steroids & hgh.
Then Bonds stopped being hurt and improved when age should have kicked in.
Then Clemens won several Cy Youngs when it looked like his stuff was dimishing. Doing this as he is aging and actually had some of his best years when you would think age would slow him down.
There is no "proof" steroids help. And probably never will be because of what they would have to do to have proof.
But I think it's a big assumption to believe they didn't play a part in creating the best pitcher ever and the best hitter ever in one generation, the steroid generation.
As far as all the weaker players that would have been AAAA players? If they didn't take they would be in the minors. And someone else would have their job. Someone deserving. This forced weaker players to take or lose out on a career. This is the worst part of it IMO.
Just think if you were a player in AAA that realized you were good enough to make the pro's (but only marginally) and were about to get the call in a year or two. Then a large group of players, slightly lower in talent, passed you on the depth chart because of taking steroids.
You either are forced to take. Or stay clean and lose your career.
by pedrophile on Dec 13, 2007 7:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Oft-injured
by FlipYrWhig on Dec 13, 2007 7:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ouch
Mitchel did a good job of painting a broad view of steriods in baseball, but think what would happen if he had some form of subpena power other ways to make these guys talk.
by laxtonto on Dec 13, 2007 7:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
ESPN
It is obvious in ESPN's blatant attempts to promote a souped-up sports culture that they could give a damn about the integrity of the game, preferring to fatten their ratings on dingers and 100mph fastballs.
ESPN would rather baseball simply morph into their beloved broadcast partner, the NFL, and rely on the fan's suspension of disbelief, rather than a proactive drug policy, in protecting the integrity and future of sport
Do yourselves a favor and go read SI, or at least a blog where the apologists have some decent rationale.
by GuyinNY on Dec 14, 2007 2:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
-1
Baseball, the Media etc noone did anything a PEDS' etc
The Report is a sham.... Full of 'he said, she said, and witnesses that wouldnt hold up in a criminal or civil case.
Mandatory drug testing and frozen samples For ALL Pro sports is the only way to clean it up.
Not some 409 pg rehashing of crap we already suspected.
Am I surprised by any name? NO That less than 1% of players are named? NO
Worthless, toothless waste of paper
Bring on more Farnsworth tackles of P Wilson!!!!
by gmsnctry on Dec 14, 2007 7:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN
The problem with many sports journalists is that they are not true "newspeople". Their reputation depends on the athletes, coaches, executives, etc liking them and they are very motivated by that. They prefer "puff" pieces to real journalism. This is a generalization, of course, but it applies to many of them on ESPN, Fox, and SI.
by count sutton on Dec 14, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well Aware
And yet, ESPN's newly assembled I-Team of Quinn, Bryant, and Farinaru-Wada promises to be an extremely provocative and intellecutally curious bunch. I just hope they don't get muzzled.
I think it deserves to be noted that when Jon Heyman and Tom Verducci(the man who REALLY brought this whole steroid issue to the fore with Ken Caminiti) both tear into the drug culture of sports, they seem to do so without losing any contacts inside the game. Same goes for your local beat writer, who's likely spent the last 3-4 years with steroids as his easy article for righteous indignation, and yet still manages to et scoops about the team he covers.
I am in what I consider a silent majority jowls wag, assertion that I am not a crook that doesn't very much care for steroid use by my athletes, and would like to see a decent effort to clean up the sport. Is the Mitchell Report flawed? Yes, and no. As a former U.S. Attorney and federal judge, I'm inclined to believe that Mitchell wouldn't be so wily-nily is thrusting about such potentially injurious claims, particularly when such a longstanding and hard-earned reputation as his is on the line.
So, perhaps Brian Roberts has reason to be perturbed at his seemingly thin connection to baseball's doping culture, but the point of the report was to give a peak into, and a general sense of the steroid culture, how and why it happened, and moreover, what to do to get rid of it. And on that front, if only because of the tremendous amount of publicity and scrutiny which the Report has brought the game under, I do expect this problem to be ameliorated as much as can be in the near future.
by GuyinNY on Dec 14, 2007 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

by 












