Worst GM in MLB
by goose102977 on Nov 30, 2007 4:44 PM EST
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PrintThis is the time of year that every fan becomes critical of every move that every GM makes. Whether right or wrong we all have our opinion and having read many of these diaries I have noticed that certain people love to rip into certain GMs. Well here is your chance.
In your opinion, who is the worst GM in baseball? Don't just list the GM of your least favorite team, back it up with past transactions, mismanagement of the roster, etc. I have my personal opinion, but will save it so as not to draw the ire of that team's fans who may think this is just a chance to rip them.
What do you guys think?
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Soriano was dealt
Well...
+1
Beltre
Bavasi has had a couple of deals that have worked out well (eg. Jose Guillen, Miguel Batista, Yuniesky Betancourt), but, by and large, for a team with the annual salary allowances that the M's have, they spend it poorly and fail to consumate the deals that other smaller market teams seem to make.
The fact of the matter is, the Mariners organization is satisfied to place a promisingly mediocre roster of nice, community conscious guys on the field year in and year out to appease the masses of equally nice baseball debutant fans who appear en masse to "Mariner Knitting Night" (yes, that is a real promotion) and do not know what to do when Red Sox Nation overruns their Eddie Bauer-esque stadium 6 nights a year.
Memo to M's brass--Be hospitable and play Sweet Caroline during the 7th inning instead of Louie Louie and the Sox Nation will love you for it.
Ok, I am cursing again and will commence again with my Santana for Clement, Jones, and Morrow daydream.
by bellinghambaysports on Nov 30, 2007 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Beltre
I think everyone judges him so poorly because he has never, and won't, replicate that one career year. But he's definitely worth the contract.
-1
by Lunkwill Fook on Dec 1, 2007 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
OPS+
105 $12.9
112 $12.9
Now tell me that seems worth it.
by Lunkwill Fook on Dec 1, 2007 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
+1
by Sawman on Nov 30, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
the 2002 WS
+1.
by MontrealMets on Dec 1, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Still Purpura
2nd that one
by goalieguy on Nov 30, 2007 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Milton Bradley for Andre Ethier still looks good. I think a lot of his reputation will depend on how well Jason Schmidt comes back.
by count sutton on Nov 30, 2007 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Coletti
by Maverick @ Minor League Ball on Nov 30, 2007 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
I was going to say Bowden...
So, right now the worst GM in baseball IMO is...Pat Gillick. Does he not know he needs a 3B? He's cool with the idea of converting their best starter to closer, signing Burrell to that crap contract, regiving stud prospects to the White Sox, Jamie Moyer, etc.
Man I disagree
Thirdly, who would you want as the 3b? The market is thin.
Fourthly, indeed the Garcia trade was bad, but the guy also has gotten a lot of talent:
A) Shane Victorino off the scrap heap
B) Greg Dobbs off the scrap heap
C) Jayson Werth off the scrap heap
Fifthly, Brett Myers was not the Phillies best starter, he was simply their opening day starter. That "best" role belongs to Cole Hamels.
And Jamie Moyer's had a 4.7 ERA over his time with the Phils. Nothing incredible, but he did pitch 200 innings this year, while providing mentoring (whatever you value mentoring at, it's still helpful in some way) for Cole. Is he the best starter on the team? No, but he wasn't the worst, although he was signed to be a #5/long reliever. Shit happens when former #1s fall apart and $$ you throw at pitching fails -- nothing unexpected, but it happens to everyone.
Not to mention, the Phils made the playoffs this year, which would not have happened if Gillick's scrap-heaps had not panned out so brilliantly. Maybe he got lucky, but he got equally unlucky with his poor signings.
Which is all to say, while I'm sure you have thought out your opinion, I think if you take a look at a larger view, you can't really believe that Gillick (in his short tenure with the team) has really done all that much harm, and might argue that he's done some good. Would I prefer DePo? Of course, but who wouldn't?
He's made some bogus moves, but he hasn't made worst-in-baseball moves.
victorino was a wade acquisition
variables don't; constants aren't
by overlord on Nov 30, 2007 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
you're right on
At the time of Myers move to the pen he was the best starter on the team without doubt. Did Hamels become the best starter on the team this year? Yes. But that happened after the move.
Gregg Dobbs is a backup bat off the bench at best and Werth can't stay healthy enough to matter and is a reserve OF at best. Both are still scraps. I'd also like a better pitcher than old man Moyer. He'll probably sign him to an extention soon.
You would think a playoff GM would think an evan average 3B would help. Not Gillick evidently. That whole 3 headed mess at 3B was a laughing stock. He should be on the phone right now trying to get someone like Ian Stewart to man the hot corner while he can.
Wade
Made a number of poor trades (Schilling, Abreu) as well as some very bad signings (Lieberthal, Thome, etc.).
That kind of balance is underrated by many, I think. Plenty of guys make poor signing decisions or poor trading decisions, but both? That's impressive.
Wade's Abreu deal was excellent
Still, Ed Wade did really suck as a GM.
My Bad
Lieberthal was an obvious candidate to decline, as you just don't give those sorts of long-term contracts to aging catchers, particularly not offensive ones. And, while Thome was still a fearsome slugger when Wade signed him, IMO Wade paid Thome too much for way too long, and blocked Howard.
But yeah, I guess you can say his heart was in the "right place." Although that doesn't explain David Bell...
I'm pretty sure
CJ Henry
Not that he'll do anything, but there he is...
by Jeteupthemiddle on Dec 1, 2007 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
+1 on Bavasi
Quentin McCracken, Greg Colbrunn, Rich Aurillia, Pokey Reese, Chris Reitsma, and most notably, Richie Sexson (13 mil per season) and Jeff Weaver (8 mil last year).
Ahh, we could also look at deals that were made.
Freddy Garcia to the White Sox for Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Mike Morse.
Rafael Soriano to the Braves for Horacio Ramirez
Carlos Guillen to the Tigers for Ramon Santiago and Juan (the skinny, no-hit, no-roid SS) Gonzalez
Bret Boone (traded two years too late) for a player to be named later in Minnesota
John Olerud to the Red Sox for a player to be named later
Jamie Moyer for two low-level pitching prospects in Philly.
There is always, of course, the deals that don't get consumated like:
Jeremy Reed to the Red Sox for either Jon Papelbon or Jon Lester. At the time, I believe this was 2005, Spacey Bavasi had his choice of the two in a straight across trade. Bavasi insisted that both be included in the deal.
Finally, the Mariners have been beneficiaries of lucrative draft positions (including the 3rd pick in the best 1st round of this generation 2005). Passing on the likes of Troy Tulowitzki, Ryan Braun, Jay Bruce, Ryan Zimmerman, Clay Buchholz, and Cameron Maybin for Jeff Clement seems dimwitted to me and selecting Brandon Morrow in favor of local products Tim Lincecum and Travis Snider may not render the best results as well. Not to mention, that they misused Morrow as a middle reliever last year instead of sending him to AAA to hone his control on his fastball and slider.
I now realize that I am rambling and cursing audibly and will now pass the conch to the next person. Thanks for letting me aboard.
by bellinghambaysports on Nov 30, 2007 5:06 PM EST reply actions
LOL
Vidro
by NBarnes on Nov 30, 2007 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
I Was Going To Say......
by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 30, 2007 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
Minaya
Omar
Kris Benson for Jorge Julio and John Maine
Jorge Julio for El Duque
Xavier Nady for Oliver Perez (and Roberto Hernandez)
Plus a couple other names that he acquired of note: Duaner Sanchez, Damian Easley, Darren Oliver, Pedro Feliciano.
Until we see what happens with Milledge, I say his worst trade, of course, is the Heath Bell trade in which the Mets received a 5th outfielder and a reliever they used for all of one inning before they canned him. I'm going to wait to see what Brian Bannister does next season before I pass judgement on that trade.
by Lunkwill Fook on Dec 1, 2007 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Brian Sabean?
Years of failure to find any power at all for RF and 1B to back up Barry Bonds in the lineup.
The Russ Ortiz trade.
Letting Jeff Kent go so he could sign Edgardo Alfonzo.
The Nathan/Liriano/Bonser for AJ Pierzynski trade(now, that ought to be enough right there!)!
Intentionally dumping a first round draft choice to free up money to sign........Michael Tucker?!!
The Zito contract.
Inummerable little deals that failed to benefit the team either in the long or short term.
Failure to address a deficit in scouting and developing position prospects for years.
HIs last two drafts and some international signings are encouraging, but that may be in spite of him rather than because of him.
algebra
variables don't; constants aren't
by overlord on Nov 30, 2007 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
WTF?
I'd rather have Pichardo than Michael Tucker, and I'm glad Sabean was able to salvage that out of the deal, but Pichardo is no first round draft choice talent.
His last good moves were a few years ago
Not going aggressively after Vlad hurt still hurts to this day.
by spider on Nov 30, 2007 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Billy Beane
weren't they in the ALCS...
i'll stop giving him a free pass when he starts doing things besides making great moves and keeping his low payroll team consistently competitive (when they're not even better than that).
there's almost no phrase in this short post that i don't object to, though. "how long"? "free pass"? "OBLIVION"????
"NO END IN SIGHT"?????????
i mean, sure, the farm's not great right now, but they have plenty of youth IN THE MAJORS instead. and Beane consistently manages to bring new cheap talent into the team, so you wouldn't necessarily see what he does have coming.
finally, the entire concept of "no end in sight" is hilarious coming from a Giants fan who insists that the team will have their entire lack of a youth movement turned around by 2010, simply because they had one draft with a lot of first-round picks.
by bleedjaxblue on Nov 30, 2007 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
and, incidentally...
by bleedjaxblue on Nov 30, 2007 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Well
I'm guessing you don't have a problem with calling Beane a "guy." But maybe I'm wrong.
Also, since when did we get multiple votes? Pick a GM, Doc. Is it Minaya, Sabean, Beane, or somebody else?
Nominations
by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 30, 2007 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
Bleed
Beane has been riding the residuals from Sandy Alderson, and they are running out fast.
by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 30, 2007 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
i disagree....
as for the Sabean point, my comparison wasn't about whether Sabean was as bad as Beane (though, personally, i don't think Sabean is bad at all), but merely the use of the phrase "with no end in sight." since you believe the Giants are horrible right now at the major league level, and, as of a year or two ago, had one of the worst systems in baseball, it's questionable to say the A's woes have "no end in sight" when you simultaneously maintain the Giants woes will turn themselves around with only a three-year down-period, despite the fact they were in much more dire straits than the A's are now. if the Giants can turn it around this quickly (under one of the worst GMs in the game, according to you), surely the phrase "no end in sight" can't have much meaning for you.
by bleedjaxblue on Nov 30, 2007 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
No End In Sight
Yes, the Giants are in worse immediate shape, but they have had a considerable infusion of high ceiling talent, and I'm not just talking about the 2007 draft. In addition to Bumgarner, Alderson, Fairley, Noonan and Culberson, you may have heard of their 2006 first rounder? Or a certain 16 yo kid named Angel? And, oh yeah, they are sitting with the #5 pick in the 2008 draft. They get an impact college bat with that pick and they are in very nice shape for somewhere around 2010.
Now, don't get me wrong. Sabean has been a disaster for at least 5 years now. He certainly deserves consideration for worst GM, and I can certainly think of some potential GM's I would be a lot more confident in, but IMO, the Giants long term future is brighter than that of the A's and Billy Beane is, by far, the most overrated GM in the game.
by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 30, 2007 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously?
First of all, Alderson did not draft the big 3. All of them were picked during Beane's tenure. beane took over in '97; Hudson was drafted in '98, Mulder in '99, and Zito in 2000.
I don't think we need to go over the trades he pulled off prior to the Hudson and Mulder deals. Granted, the Hudson trade has been a horrible bust, but the Mulder deal was excellent. Haren has been better than Mulder, Calero has been a valuable reliever, and although Barton will probably never be a star, he is likely to be a solid bat. Those 3 players will provide the A's with more wins than Mulder alone could have, for less money. How can you say he should have gotten more?
You complain that the guys he has graduated to the majors are low-ceiling guys. As someone else pointed out, Blanton is better than the best starter on most major league teams. Swisher would be a starter for virtually any team in the majors, and hit 35 HR's just 2 seasons ago. I'm not saying he will ever repeat that, but he is capable of it. In my opinion, Barton is underrated. He's a 22 year old who hit a ton of doubles at triple-A, but everyone is so sure he'll never hit for power. Even if those double don't turn into HR's, he's got adecent shot at turning into John Olerud.
Ok, this is way too long. My point is that Beane may not be the best, but he is VERY VERY VERY far from being the worst. That is a preposterous nomination.
Two Beane's
If the A's are in such great shape, why do you suppose they are so seriously considering trading Haren and/or Blanton and starting over? They can try that if they want, but if they do, their pitching will be an absolute wasteland for years to come. They have nobody, nobody that is even remotely a pitching prospect above low A ball, not even back of the bullpen material!
Fuson was gone by '02
I am not saying that the A's farm system is in great shape. I think you're right, they have no decent pitching prospects. I mean, when you're protecting Jeff Gray from the Rule 5 draft, you're grasping at straws. I also don't like Simmons, the guy they took in the 1st round this year. That being said, their ML roster is not nearly as bad as the Giants. Sure, some of the injuries they suffered last year were predictable. You know Crosby is going to be the victim of some freak incident (not that losing him hurts much). You know Kotsay's back will never be right again (again, not that losing him hurts much). But who could have predicted that they would literally run out of OF's on their 40 man roster? At full strength, this team was almost (but not quite, IMO) as good as the Angels. As for what went wrong, I think there are a couple of factors here. One is that some of the best prospects have been beset by injuries (Lansford, Powell, Herrera, etc.). Also, Beane hasn't been able to get as much back in trades in the last couple of years. Part of that is probably the influence of Moneyball. More teams value players the same way as Beane, or at least closer to how he does. Another part is probably simply economics. As fewer and fewer teams are willing/able to afford free agents, or even their own arb-eligible players, they value prospects that much more.
Giants vs A's
Yes, I readily admit that the A's current roster is stronger than the Giants, but is also not a playoff caliber roster and it's not exactly on an upward trajectory. The Giants are much deeper in young pitching and have a lot more on the way. The A's have absolutely nothing higher than low A to help out and even the stuff down there is of the low-mid ceiling variety.
What's happened to the A's is that they have been steadily losing star players and replacing them with mid-ceiling prospects. They are also finding out the low risk prospects aren't always that low risk, but that hasn't translated into "you might as well go for high ceiling then."
Here's what BA's assessment of the A's 2007 draft was:
"Oakland went back to what it does well-drafting college players-and did well from that pool. The organization needs an infusion of impact talent, though, and this draft didn't provide that."
As for injuries, the Giants suffered an injury to a certain superstar, I recall. In addition, they had injuries to Eddy Martinez-Esteve and Craig Whitaker. They traded away several prospects and pretty much blew off the 2004 and 2005 drafts and they still have a much stronger farm system than the A's.
by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 2, 2007 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Addendum
Remember the names Henry Sosa, Waldis Joaquin, Jose Valdez and Wilbur Bucardo while you are at it.
by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 1, 2007 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
Nitpicking
Player A: 592 minor league games .282/.381/.420, 130 sb, 58 cs, 27 years old
Player B: 127 minor league games .325/.398/.507, 15 sb, 4 cs, 24 years old
Who's Comparing?
Hey, the Giants are going to suck in 2008 and probably in 2009 too. I think they will start a solid upswing in 2010 and will look a lot like the current Dodgers by 2011.
I'm comparing
Yes, the Giants system is better now. But I don't know if that will hold true for long. I think you could see a couple of guys in the A's system move up fairly quickly. No reason for me to think that, and I certainly don't know as much about player development as a lot of other people here, including you. But I do think that Cahill and Rodriguez will move up fast from here. I also think Corey Brown will move quickly. Herrera and Powell likely will be competing for ML roster spots by '09. So if Beane keeps Haren and Blanton, he will have very good pitching to go with a sold offense. If he trades them, it will only be because he gets an offer that blows his socks off. Now, that offer could be similar to the Meyer/Thomas/Cruz, but it could also be similar to Haren/Calero/Barton.
Comparing
Yes, Travis Buck is a better prospect than Fred Lewis, but is he better than Nate Schierholtz, or John Bowker? I guess time will tell.
As for the low minors, are Cahill and Brown going to move any faster than Clayton Tanner and Andy D'Alessio? Do they have as high a ceiling as Bumgarner or Tim Alderson and Angel Villalona or Nick Noonan? Is Rodriguez any better than Waldis Joaquin or Henry Sosa?
The Giants farm system right now is in far better shape than the A's.
As for trades, if Beane believed in his farm system producing by 2009 as much as you, do you think he would be dangling two of the 4 decent pitchers he has? As for blowing socks off, Lester and Masterson from Boston for Haren just ain't going to get it done no matter what position players they get in addition.
by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 2, 2007 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Is it too early...
by CrimsonLiederhosen on Nov 30, 2007 7:07 PM EST reply actions
Lol
Is Dan O'brien still eligible?
I don't believe a GM has ever been more clueless. All the Bavasi love is pretty damning though, I could move Dan-O down a notch.
+7 on Bavasi
y'know what would be great
Peter Angelos
by Biggie Smalls on Nov 30, 2007 9:42 PM EST reply actions
Sweaterpants Krivsky
What increases my disdain for Sweaterpants is his Nixonian way of managing the Reds. He whispers in corners with is trusted cabel of bootlicks and drives out anyone in the organization who does not play yes-man with him. Wayne has no concept of honesty. And, of course, Wayne absolutely refuses to admit he ever made the smallest mistake ever in his life. There is no hope for improvement from this man. He just needs to be lived with or fired. He is what he is.
Seems reasonable
Sure, why not?
Between Ethier and Melky, it's Ethier. And it's not particularly close. As best I can tell, the one area where Melky beats out Ethier is in age (being 2.3 years younger - not insignificant). But I just don't understand the fascination with Cabrera. The guy had a 718 OPS this past season, with a craptacular .327 OBP (his OPS+ the last two seasons...? 95 and 89). Naturally, there is time for him to improve upon those numbers, but I just don't see much chance that he matches what Ethier has done (OPS+ of 113 and 105 the past two seasons).
Melky is a 4th outfielder, nothing more. Ethier may never be a superstar, but he's at least productive.
Melky = Overrated
Darn good?
Melky is the same, Ethier is slightly better.
They don't do anything above average and they don't do anything really below average.
huh?
David is a solid bet to return to his .290/.360/.440 form next season, maybe better if his plate discipline keeps improving.
Pretty sure that was Bob Gebhardt
Jesus
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