Orlando Cabrera for Jon Garland

what was the point for the Whitesox

They resigned Uribe to a 4.5 million dollar deal. They now have two SS, unless they want to move Uribe to 3rd or 2nd.

by Bravesin07 on Nov 19, 2007 12:29 PM EST reply actions

Link?

You realize that prospect lists have a time horizon of like 5-10 years, not 5-10 days, right?

by slurve on Nov 19, 2007 12:30 PM EST reply actions

Link...

It's on the front page of mlb.com

http://mlb.mlb.com/index.jsp

by guru4u on Nov 19, 2007 12:33 PM EST up reply actions

Instinctively, I love this deal for the Angels. They have great defense, and I think a pitcher like Garland will thrive there. Cabrera is a defensive asset (ironically, the sort of guy Garland lives by), and is on a favorable contract. But, a healthy (and that's a big if, due to his shoulder) Jon Garland makes this a win for the Angels.

I also happen to think this paves the way for Brandon Wood moving back to short and Miguel Cabrera going to the Angels.

by GuyinNY on Nov 19, 2007 12:33 PM EST reply actions

Well

Some of that great Angels defense just went the other way in Cabrera, but I also think that moving from the Cell to Anaheim will help Garland's numbers.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 12:58 PM EST up reply actions

park

superficially, moving from the cell to the big A will help garland's numbers. but i think it actually decreases his value. it's a pretty minor effect, but groundball pitchers are most valuable when they pitch in HR-friendly parks. a ground ball isn't going over the fence no matter what park you're in, so that aspect of the park effect will be (partly) neutralized by a guy like garland, while it will still help your own offense.

by jpahk on Nov 19, 2007 1:05 PM EST up reply actions

Garland

Yeah, except that he's not as much of a GB pitcher as his rep:

45.5%
47.3%
42.1%
39.4%

As an aside, I've never really been sure why people inside baseball seem so enamored with Jon Garland. Poor K rates, so-so command, and nothing else that really stands out. A fine #4 guy, but he's starting to get awful expensive.

I like the move for CWS.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 1:17 PM EST up reply actions

Right

I'd be absolutely fine with Garland as a #4 starter for my team. But, $10M for a #4?

That seems like way too much.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 1:26 PM EST up reply actions

Actually

Make that $12M for 2008.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions

Cash

How about if it were an extra $5M? Or $6M?

I don't know how much extra the Angels are kicking in, but reports indicate that they are paying CWS some cash to take O-Cab off their hands.

For me, leaving aside the deal for a second, paying $12M for a #4 starter is crazy. For that reason alone, moving Garland was a good idea.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions

Isn't Garland

going to be in the first year of a new deal effecting his FA status? Or does it not count because it was considered an extension. I never can get that stuff straight with contracts.

Send your top 50-100 prospects to slurveone@ahoo.com!!!

by slurve on Nov 19, 2007 2:46 PM EST up reply actions

Cot's

Has him in the last year of his 3-year deal signed 12/2005. Not sure what extension/new contract you're referring to, but everything I see has him as an FA after 2008.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions

Ken Rosenthal

Says that the Angels also sent $1.5M to the Windy City along with O-Cab.

Jon Garland, a $13.5M #4 starter...ouch.

by Yakker on Nov 20, 2007 1:06 PM EST up reply actions

Angels Defense

Well, I do agree that Cabrera is the sort of player that Garland must love to have. But, I think that Aybar/Wood will make up most of the difference, and the rest of that team should come home in tact.

And I think Jon Garland, much like any pitcher, is probably very happy to move away from the Cell.

by GuyinNY on Nov 19, 2007 1:06 PM EST up reply actions

Is it just me?

Or does signing a groundball pitcher, moving an inexperienced 3B to SS, and trading for one of the worst defensive 3B in the game seem like a strange series of moves.

by Dfarth on Nov 19, 2007 1:04 PM EST up reply actions

Typo

Replace "signing" with "trading for"

by Dfarth on Nov 19, 2007 1:05 PM EST up reply actions

Aybar over Wood

SS isn't being cleared for Wood, I wouldn't say. It's going to be a MI of Aybar and Kendrick.

Wood would be 3B, but I'm guessing would be a cornerstone in a preferred deal to get Miggy Cabrera.

by Galt on Nov 19, 2007 12:36 PM EST reply actions

Kenny

I've been very supportive of most Kenny Williams moves in the past, even when they haven't worked out, but I don't understand this one at all.

Cabrera is a career .273/.321/.403 hitter, coming into his age-33 season. I don't hate O-Cab, but trading for a guy coming off his career year is usually a bad move. And the Sox have bigger fish to fry with their outfield holes (despite the consternation people have expressed over the wildly inconsistent Uribe). Given how desperate teams are for pitching, I think they could have gotten much more for Garland than 1 year of O-Cab.

by BobbyMac on Nov 19, 2007 12:37 PM EST reply actions

Gio

Do you guys think this paves the way for Gio?

by killa on Nov 19, 2007 12:39 PM EST reply actions

Yes Yes

and YES!

by FanBall on Nov 19, 2007 1:04 PM EST up reply actions

this doesn't...

... make a whole heck of a lot of sense. Both teams must have other moves in mind, because the Angels needed a SS more than a SP, and the White Sox didn't need a SS. (Well, okay, I understand Uribe's not very good, but they did literally just re-sign the guy. Are they gonna move him to 2B, or trade him -- which I can't imagine would bring much in -- or what?)

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Nov 19, 2007 12:45 PM EST reply actions

Weren't they being offered Renteria for Garland?

Wish they could take that back. Kenny must have thought he was going to get more in the offseason. Me thinks Kenny is losing his touch.

by FanBall on Nov 19, 2007 1:05 PM EST reply actions

Kenny Williams is not good at his job

Ok, I will preface this with the fact that I am a diehard Cub fan, but will look at this objectively as best I can. At least I am honest.

Kenny Williams is perhaps one of the worst GMs in the business. This trade proves that he has no idea what he is doing. The free agent market is extremely thin at SP and instead of dealing Garland for future help, he trades for an aging middle infielder. I feel that he could have held out for a lot more in this market. Once again, Kenny makes yet another move that bolsters his aging offense to match with his young pitching. If there ever was a "win now" type offense, the White Sox have it with Konerko, Thome, Dye, and Cabrera all on the wrong side of 30 and matching that with "win later" SP. Kenny gets a pass for 2005 here in Chicago, but that has to end, his teams are awful and the 2008 White Sox will not be any better.

by goose102977 on Nov 19, 2007 1:06 PM EST reply actions

Kenny

Perhaps they're weren't too many teams lining up to trade for a $10M starting pitcher with K/9 ratios in the 4s and K/BB ratios under 2.

Add in the surprisingly low strand rate (65.5% in 2007) and BABIP (.290 for 2007) for Garland, and I'm not sure Kenny didn't take the only deal on the table.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 1:25 PM EST up reply actions

Oh, and

Yahoo is saying that CWS also got Anaheim to kick some cash into the deal. No idea if it is a meaningful amount or not (does someone know what the $$ look like?), but that is on top of the $3M CWS was already netting by swapping Garland's $12M (for 2008) for Cabrera's $9M (for 2008).

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 1:34 PM EST up reply actions

Williams

is going to use the extra money to sign the vastly overrated Torii Hunter...he's still an idiot.

by ajohnst1 on Nov 19, 2007 9:54 PM EST up reply actions

LOL

Poor White Sox fans...

by Yakker on Nov 20, 2007 1:11 PM EST up reply actions

Kenny William's teams are awful ?

Really, coming from a flubs fan ? That's hilarious!

Let's see the White Sox just had their first losing season since 1999. And, the flubbbies....ummm...they haven't had a winning decade since the 1930's.

Oh well, no one ever accused a flubs fan of knowing much about baseball.

by White Sox Randy on Nov 19, 2007 1:55 PM EST up reply actions

That's good

compare the Sox by each year to the Cubs by the decade.

Send your top 50-100 prospects to slurveone@ahoo.com!!!

by slurve on Nov 19, 2007 2:12 PM EST up reply actions

lol

I was wondering if I was the only one to notice that.

"Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young and 11 Tim Lincecums." -uga007

by Boxkutter on Nov 19, 2007 3:39 PM EST up reply actions

White Sox Randy

I challenge you to justify this trade, the signing of Uribe, and having the oldest starting position players in baseball. Instead of being a typical Sox fan that would rather rip on the Cubs than root for their own team, I would like to hear what you have to say.

For those of you outside of Chicago, White Sox fans have serious issues being the #2 team in this fine city. That and they attempt to justify how great the Cell is solely because of the food...just don't go walking around at night down there.

by goose102977 on Nov 19, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions

count me among them

i'm one of those "flubs" fans that knows nothing about baseball. no clue here. that's why i come here...so white sox fanx can explain it all to me.

...oh...and to get tips on jumping the first base coaches of visiting teams.

i am seriously tired of hearing that cubs fans don't know baseball...that they just go to get tan, tna, and drunk. if you removed all those people (which i admit are there) from wrigley, you'd still have more people than attend 75% of other team's games.

oh, and angels win this deal, phiago. congrats on fatherhood, too, btw.

http://www.simdynasty.com/index.jsp?refer=mychiefs58

by huckleberry on Nov 20, 2007 2:35 AM EST up reply actions

Wasn't Renteria on the table?

Couldn't the ChiSox have had Renteria for Garland just a few short months ago? Seems like that would have been a clearly better deal for Chicago than OCab.

Guess I shouldn't complain; I'm much happier with Jurrjens/Hernandez than I would have been with Garland. :-)

by mraver on Nov 19, 2007 1:28 PM EST reply actions

Also

Kenny balked at the last second on the Hirsh/Buccholz/Taveras deal for Garland.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions

AROD

what about AROD....the deal with NY is not official....what about AROD to the Halos to play SS

Frank Tanana is my all time favorite player and he was a member of VTTigers beloved team....my tribute to VTTigers

by gashousegang on Nov 19, 2007 1:45 PM EST reply actions

Another trade?

I think this is going to lead to a surprise A-Rod move, or a trade has already been made for Miguel Tejada. I just don't see Arte Moreno settling for a rookie SS while the Dodgers are planning on making big moves across town.

by NMUWildcat027 on Nov 19, 2007 1:47 PM EST reply actions

Tejada

I'd have to imagine that the Angels have a domino move coming here, and as a few posters have mentioned, Tejada makes the most sense. They tried to get him 1.5 years ago, and now they have a clear role for him at ss. They have an extra starter, so a package built around Santana and Aybar probably gets it done, though they may have to put a throw in prospect into the mix.
I can't imagine they want Aybar to be the ss going into the season, especially given their primary issue was their offense last year.
Tejada is coming to the Angels, if I had to guess the next move.
JAS

by jasvlm on Nov 19, 2007 3:25 PM EST reply actions

Tejada

I don't think Aybar/Santana gets it done.

That's the exact same package the Orioles rejected a year ago, and although Tejada's trade value has probably gone down slightly, Aybar and Santana had horrific seasons.

I do think a deal gets done, but I think the Angels have to send Wood + Santana + a prospect.

by dkdc on Nov 19, 2007 3:28 PM EST up reply actions

No Way

Frankly, I think even sending Brandon Wood to Baltimore straight up for Tejada is crazy.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions

Wood for Tejada

I love prospects, but the Angels are a team that can compete-giving up Wood (who I like but has some question marks even as a prospect) for Tejada would be a short-term steal for LAA. I'm not convinced he's washed up and I think he'd be refreshed to get out of the O's organization.

by killa on Nov 19, 2007 10:00 PM EST up reply actions

Tejada

Well, who knows? But in Tejada you're talking about an expensive, aging slugger who's certainly had his fair share of steroid whispers over the years.
His defense is below-average at SS, and his slugging percentage has declined each of the 4 years he's been in Camden:

.534
.515
.498
.442

Perhaps he'll be "refreshed" in Anaheim, but there's nothing in the data to suggest that's likely. I think all the Gs played has finally caught up with him.

I'd stay away.

by Yakker on Nov 20, 2007 1:22 PM EST up reply actions

Figgins

Can Chone play SS?

by montenegro on Nov 19, 2007 4:08 PM EST reply actions

not well

I'm not sarcastic when I say Wood would be a much better SS. Many don't realize (including myself until recently) that Wood played over 20 games this season at SS and was a SS his whole career until then, and only moved to 3B due to organizational needs. Figgins should play 3B, with Wood at SS, and that should be more obvious.

Hey fish, leave those kids alone!

by The Congo Hammer on Nov 19, 2007 6:42 PM EST up reply actions

Or

Cabrera (Miguel) at 3B, Figgins at 2B, and Wood/Aybar at SS.

by Yakker on Nov 19, 2007 7:05 PM EST up reply actions

Paying $12M for Garland AND giving up cash?

I'd like to hear what the official word is on the cash going to the Angels, if it's true. But would anybody else here really pay that much for Garland if you had Santana and Saunders already rostered for peanuts? Even if Colon doesn't come back that's still a pretty nice starting 5 without Garland (Lackey, Escobar, Weaver, Santana, and Saunders).

Also, to address earlier comments, Garland is not a groundball pitcher and h's now going to a team with one of the worst OF defenses in baseball. Ouch.

"When people talk, listen completely. Most people never listen." (Hemingway)

by jmoultz on Nov 19, 2007 4:10 PM EST reply actions

Rosenthal

is reporting that the Angels are paying $1.5M extra.

Not as bad as it could have been, but it does seem sorta like rubbing salt in the wound: Chicago gets the better player, sheds a $12M obligation for 200+ league average IPs, and gets $1.5M.

by Yakker on Nov 20, 2007 1:15 PM EST up reply actions

Uribe....

this is what makes the least sense of all of this for me. What on earth are they doing with that 4.5 million contact that they signed him to less than 2 weeks ago? Are they moving him to 2nd? He hasn't played there since 2004 (and then only as a part-time player having only played a grand total of 5 games in the minors at 2nd), are they moving him to 3rd and non-tendering/shopping Joe Crede? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

But then again, signing a guy who is the SS equivalent of Tony Batista to a 4.5 million dollar contract makes no sense whatsoever wither

by Terry Ryan Jr on Nov 19, 2007 6:05 PM EST reply actions

angels

i think this paves the way for a deal with florida for m.cabrera more so than for tejada.
tejada's range and defense are on a decline. plus while has an effective bat, i don't see him being such a vast improvement over say brandon wood in def or offense should wood play ss.

shooting for m.cab on the other hand makes more sense. by acquiring garland the angels can now deal from a very deep pitching for m.cab, who only recently announced that he;s out of shape and will slim down, so maybe he'll play 3b, or else in the of?

i think they'll offer one of their young arms + brandon wood + another prospect, or else young arm + kendrick + another prospect i just don't see them offering kendrick though.

by bk11 on Nov 20, 2007 2:56 AM EST reply actions

First Boston, now LAA

Whispers around here after the Red Sox let O-Cab go in 2004 was that he was a bad apple in the clubhouse. After this deal went down, methinks that the Angels experienced the same thing the Sox did and just needed to get rid of him. Garland is simply a movable piece and I'm sure it was not simply a question of talent in this case.

by thomasps3 on Nov 20, 2007 3:28 PM EST reply actions

Friends in Tampa

O-Cabs friends in Tampa are tools. I sat next to his entourage one game, and they were just tools. I talked to a guy who works for the Rays and he said they almost started a fight the game before I went. Nothing about him personally, but if your friends are tools, you probably are too.

by Tyler on Nov 20, 2007 5:17 PM EST up reply actions

Hmm..

Do we now have a datapoint that being a tool/thug has no correlation to on-the-field success? After all, 2004-2007, Cabrera's teams have made the playoffs 3 of 4 years, won 2 division titles, advanced to 2 ALCSs, and won a WS.

Or perhaps, despite being a "clubhouse cancer," he just "knows how to win."

by Yakker on Nov 20, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions