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Prospect Retro: Matt Holliday

Prospect Retro: Matt Holliday

Here is one guy I was really wrong about.

Matt Holliday was drafted in the seventh round in 1998, from high school in Oklahoma. A top high school quarterback, he had to be lured away from college football at Oklahoma State. He hit .342/.413/.521 in 32 games in the Arizona Rookie League in 1998. He was a third baseman at the time due to his arm strength. I didn't rate rookie-level players back then, but given his athleticism and hitting performance I'd have probably given him a Grade C+ with a "higher potential" rating.

Holliday moved up to Asheville in the Sally League in 1999 and hit .264/.350/.435 with 16 homers. His defense at third base was shaky, and while his OPS came out above average at +11 percent, he had work to do with the strike zone. I gave him a Grade C+ in the 2000 book, noting that he had potential but that it would take him some time to develop.

The Rockies promoted Holliday to the Carolina League in 2000. He hit .274/.335/.389, cutting his strikeouts sharply but losing most of his power in the process, hitting just seven homers. His defense at third base was downright awful, as he fielded below .900 on the season. I downgraded him to Grade C, noting that the numbers were mediocre but that he still had a good birthday.

Holliday rebounded in 2001 statistically, hitting .275/.358/.482 and getting his power stroke back. But he was limited to 72 games by injuries, and spent most of the year as a DH. I remained intrigued with his youth, but not particularly wild about the numbers, the defense, and the injuries, and gave him another Grade C. At this point, I saw him as a low-batting average slugger who would have problems finding a position.

Colorado moved Holliday up to Double-A in 2002 and once again his power disappeared, his SLG down to .391. He hit .276 with a .375 OBP, but the lack of power was disappointing. I noted that Hollliday ran well for a big guy, had a strong arm, could steal a few bases, but that "he's just never hit that well, being consistently fair at each level." I gave him another Grade C, and at that point I was thinking that he'd end up as a not-very-exiting role player.

Holliday repeated Double-A in 2003, although the Rockies moved their affiliate to Tulsa in the Texas League. He hit .253/.313/.395, and in the games I saw him play he was less than impressive. His swing looked awkward and choppy to me, and for a guy repeating Double-A at age 23 his production was very weak. I wrote that "Scouts still like Holliday" due to his tools, but that unless he took a big step forward in 2004 that I didn't think he ever would live up to the physical potential. The production just wasn't there, and when I saw him in person he looked very much like a football player trying to play baseball. Another Grade C.

Holliday took that step forward in 2004, playing 121 games for the Rockies and hitting .290/.349/.488, granted Coors Field helped him. But his last two seasons have been excellent, and he's got a shot at MVP this season.

This year, he hit .376/.435/.722 at home, but "just" .301/.374/.485 on the road. . .in other words, he's a really good player, but there is something of the old Dante Bichette effect here in that the home numbers juice the raw stats. But still, even at the .301/.374/.485 level, he is a lot better than I thought he would be. There is no way I'd ever have seen him as a .300 hitter at the major league level. The minor league numbers didn't support it, and when I saw him in person he didn't show a swing or the type of consistency that would indicate he could do that. But he did, and he has, and he's going to do it again, and he will possibly end up with an MVP trophy to show for it. So all hail Matt Holliday, and the scouts and coaches who saw in him what I did not.

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Hard Work + Colorado + Late Bloomer
This guy has really developed in the majors.  Most players show or do much more in the minors.  I'm curious if there's any other players that can follow the same path.  Anyone got any good comparison's?
I'm no commie, but the Reds shall be the best again!

by RedHopeful on Oct 2, 2007 1:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

eric duncan?
at least, i hope

by nyybaseball99 on Oct 2, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ian Stewart?
? I dont really know if that is apt, but someone who scouts love who hasnt been producing as expected.

by grozzy on Oct 2, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess . . .
some people have said that Giants 1B Dan Ortmeier could be the next Holliday, and that was basing it off his athleticism and their startling similarities in Minor League statistics.

Unfortunately for us Giants fans, the odds of Ortmeier becoming the next Holliday are slim to none.

by Anticon23 on Oct 3, 2007 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i wonder
what the odds were against the last holliday becoming the current holliday? 0.1%? 0.01? seriously, i'm thinking between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 10000 players with that kind of minor league record go on to be MVP-caliber in the show.

by jpahk on Oct 3, 2007 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Humility
I respect John and his work that much more for starting off the post like that.  Good for Holliday for having a great year, and as a Giants fan, I'm obscenely jealous of the Rockies ability to develop useful position players.  

That being said, I don't think he touched the plate, but a gnarly faceplant like that's gotta count for something.  

I'm proud to have seen #756

by Azantor on Oct 2, 2007 1:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

who'd a thought...
you're a jealous Giants fan too?

by Mark carry on on Oct 2, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Body
Maybe he finally found the right combination of nutritional supplements.

by elricsi on Oct 2, 2007 2:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1
he found the flaxseed oil bonds was using.

by FRANCHISEv2 on Oct 2, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Careful
Suggesting that someone uses performance enhancers around here.  I got creamed and cleared for it.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

by HuskerBob on Oct 3, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol
And, actually, the first time I looked at Holliday, it's what I thought.  But, regardless, he hasn't tested positive, and innocent until proven guilty...right?

by GuyinNY on Oct 5, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Classic 2-Sport Athlete
Holliday was a top rated QB coming out of High School.  In fact, he was the 2nd rated QB prospect in the COUNTRY after Carson Palmer (a HS Senior the same year).

I'm guessing you'll find that a lot of the 2-sport football players that develop end up being very similar.  Scouts are high on them......stat guys don't see the production.  They end up being late-bloomers (or totally busting).

I think the biggest surprise is the fact that he only has an average throwing arm in the OF.  He was out at the practice field with a bunch of Bronco players a few weeks back (along with Todd Helton) and Helton/Holliday were running through the QB drills.  Reports were that Holliday was firing bullets all across the field.  

On a side note.....the Rockies are stockpiling QBs.  Other than Helton and Holliday, Seth Smith (who hit the big triple last night) was Eli Manning's backup QB at Ole Miss.

by sg8335aa on Oct 2, 2007 2:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

too bad Vick didn't sign
they could have really opened up the offense

by bleedjaxblue on Oct 2, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Brohm
The Rockies also drafted him.....(Rocks have a "thing" for QBs)

by sg8335aa on Oct 2, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bum
Ie, Drew Henson

by flasportsfan on Oct 2, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or...
...Josh Booty.

by FlipYrWhig on Oct 2, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or x 2
Chad Hutchinson, who bombed as a pitching prospect, then went back to the NFL and bombed again.

by FlipYrWhig on Oct 2, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cool!
I asked for this about a week ago as Holliday's statistics in the minors didn't scream MVP in 2007.

It's good to see you looking at cases at which you're wrong because you're very much respected around the blogging world!

by achengy on Oct 2, 2007 4:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great writeup
This just goes to show that you can't always judge players by their numbers.  Two years ago I argued that Holliday was going to be lucky to be as good as Dante Bichette was, and now he's put up two years in a row that rival the best Dante ever did.  I was totally wrong here obviously.  

I don't have the time to research it, but I'm willing to bet that sg8335aa might be right about 2 sport athletes that lean heavily toward football might take longer to develop their skills on the diamond, and that we need to look at them a little differently.  I know I will be taking that into account from here on out.

"There are no steroids in baseball. Just players Chuck Norris has breathed on."-chucknorrisfacts.com

by gatling on Oct 2, 2007 8:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just out of curiousity
John,

What do you personally take out of Holliday's emergence?  I never saw this growth either, based on his past performance, and even allowing for his past 2-sport and QB-background...

I guess I'm asking if "being a 2-sport HS star" is somehow "scouting-wise-equivalent" to being a great "HS catcher"...that the offense will come, though it might take time...?

I know the quick answer is "No, it won't", but can we start to see some sort of pattern?  There's a litany of failed prospects in the posts above - what was the difference between them and Holliday?

My guess is that that will NOT be the "answer", but maybe it heads us all down the right direction...

Thanks,
Joe  

by joeficarra on Oct 2, 2007 10:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Josh Fields
In trying to answer my question, i looked for 2 sport stars after reading sga's comment.  Lo and behold, I found that Josh Fields was quite an accomplished QB.  Guess where he was a great football/baseball high school player?  Yep, Stillwater High, just like Matt Holliday.  It even gets stranger when you consider Matt was a 3b.  Now Josh is contemplating on moving to the OF.  Haha, I know following Matt's footsteps will undoubtedly lead to Josh to an MVP someday too! :)

Btw, here's a link on one of the articles I read:

http://www.edmondsun.com/statenews/cnhinsall_story_193014726.html

I'm no commie, but the Reds shall be the best again!

by RedHopeful on Oct 3, 2007 2:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Response
Actually, Josh went to college and was the starting QB for two years for . . .Oklahoma State!

If he had stuck to football, he likely would've projected out as a mid-late round draft choice at QB, but it was pretty obvious that baseball was going to be his meal ticket.

Josh will almost certainly end up in the outfield. He is the opposite of "good" when it comes to defense at 3B.

by mrkupe on Oct 5, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Appropo
He's BRAUN good at 3rd.  ;)  Mahalo

Matt

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

by WayneCampbell05 on Oct 6, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is a serious discovery...
quarterbacks are the new market inefficiency.

by npurcell on Oct 6, 2007 4:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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