Liriano OUT

update

The Twins PA announcer says it was NOT shoulder but elbow pain that caused him to leave the game.

Damn!!!!

I won't get married until the Red Sox win the World Series. AGAIN!!

by Shep on Sep 13, 2006 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Bad, but...

Better his elbow than his shoulder.

Wonder if TJ is in his near future.... that sucks

by jc3 on Sep 13, 2006 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No surprise

These kinds of things don't just go away quietly.

by randomfan83 on Sep 13, 2006 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Is elbow better

Is it better to have TJ on the elbow than have the shoulder problem?? I really don't know, but he's gonna face something this off season.

Will Carroll had an interesting story about the possibility in the future of some pitchers having pre-emptive TJ surgery.

I won't get married until the Red Sox win the World Series. AGAIN!!

by Shep on Sep 13, 2006 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah

TJ is definitely a lot better than shoulder. TJ guys come back fine all the time. when a top-shelf guy goes down with a shoulder, it seems like more often than not he's never the same.

by wily mo on Sep 13, 2006 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Simplistic way to think about it....

Shoulder = velocity
Elbow = command

Generally shoulder problems take longer to get velocity back (if ever) and eblow problems take longer to get command back.

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

by HuskerBob on Sep 13, 2006 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's a little misleading.

Any injury effects command. And actually, that's the first thing to go: command. Whether its shoulder or elbow.

Although, you are right, pitchers coming back from TJ usually regain most of their velocity. Shoulder injuries, that doesn't always happen. In fact, it may be the exception, not the rule.

It also depends on what kind of shoulder injury it is. As I understand it, one kind pitchers come back from, however, they usually aren't the same afterward; the other kind (torn labrum perhaps) is almost always career ending.

by Montreal97 on Sep 14, 2006 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very true

I had rotator cuff and labrum. I could pitch with the rotator cuff. Once the labrum went I was done. Difference between slight pain before and after throwing and extreme pain with each throw.

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

by HuskerBob on Sep 14, 2006 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks!

Rotator cuff . . . that's the other one I was thinking of.

In fact, that's the problem PEdro has. A frayed rotator cuff. You can do certain shoulder exercises to shore up the area as I udnerstand it.

But, then again, I'm no doctor.

by Montreal97 on Sep 15, 2006 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: elbow vs. shoulder

tommy john it seems is pretty routine and while the rehab is difficult you come back most of the time and some guys are better than ever. i just think of when the cardinals had two young studs in matt morris and alan benes who both got hurt at the same time, morris an elbow and benes a shoulder. morris came back and his first full season after tommy john won 22 games. benes who was better than morris before the injury was never the same after his shoulder surgery and couldn't even stick in the bigs.

by fewgoodcards on Sep 13, 2006 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

TJ

It isn't a given any pitcher coming back from TJ is going to be okay, pehaps better than ever. You aren't the first to suggest this, just wanted to speak my mind. Anyone remember Jesse Foppert?
I sure hope that rest and an off-season conditioning program can cure what ails Mr. Liriano, as he is as enjoyable to watch as any pitcher in baseball.

by drwmsu1 on Sep 13, 2006 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

re: foppert

you are right that not everyone comes back, but there is a better chance than from shoulder surgery. chris carpenter is the only guy recently who i can think of that has come back from major shoulder surgery and been better than he was before.

by fewgoodcards on Sep 13, 2006 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I would much rather any pitcher have elbow surgery than shoulder, just wanted to point out that it isn't exactly routine. There are definite risks involved.

by drwmsu1 on Sep 13, 2006 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Nathan

Threw 92-94 before shoulder surgery. 95-97 after with the nastiest combination of slider and curve in the game. Of course, it took him two years after surgery to come back, and three years to eclipse his former velocity.

cmathewson

by cmathewson on Sep 15, 2006 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no control before

Foppert never had control before surgery, so to suggest he would get it back after would be wrong.

Foppert was alway potential with nice stuff, but no control.

TJ surgery is becoming more common, and easier to at least get back to your earlier form, so guys are even better.

by jbg3004 on Sep 13, 2006 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very old joke

"Doc, am I going to be able to play the piano after this surgery?"

"Of course."

"That's great, I never could before."

by Flynn Blake on Sep 13, 2006 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no

the comment about Foppert is that he didn't regain his velocity after TJ not his command.

All reports had him in the mid 90s with his fb before TJ and in the high 80s after.

I think that the point was that Foppert didn't come back from TJ and that it is never a sure thing that anyone will.

by caintastic on Sep 13, 2006 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

You summed up my ramblings very nicely, thank you!

by drwmsu1 on Sep 13, 2006 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sigh

I guess it was bound to happen again with how amazing his hard stuff was and his injury history, but I guess i was hoping he would be one of those cases where injuries were a one time thing.

Twins look far from threatening with a 2-3-4 of Silva/Garza/Bonser

by PooNani on Sep 13, 2006 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

More reasons

why Santana is the MVP if Twinkies make the playoffs.

by yoda1 on Sep 13, 2006 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Almost a month to the day

That John posted that picture of him and I didn't like his mechanics. Injuries have destroyed this generations best pitchers.......save Mr. Santana.

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

by HuskerBob on Sep 13, 2006 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

yep

i was saying the same thing...

by Dfarth on Sep 13, 2006 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OMG

Imagine that! Liriano out with an elbow injury... Why the hell would you throw him out there?

by yoda1 on Sep 13, 2006 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Probably

Because he passed every stinkin' test that the Twins had him go through. Simulated games, bullpen sessions, range and motion sessions with the trainers, and even a minor league rehab start.

Liriano showed that he was ready...too bad he didn't continue to show that.

Sickels for President.

by StatFreakNYM on Sep 13, 2006 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My fault...

I'm sorry, guys. It's my fault. Every time I've decided to put out some offers with my promising young stars this season, they've gone down with injuries. Weeks, Kazmir, and then Liriano, and now Liriano looks like it could be even worse than before. Needless to say, I won't be sending out any feelers for Mr. Santana's value this offseason. :(

by JeffersJV on Sep 13, 2006 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

and Garza's been sick...

wow, its the first time I see him. Thats an amazing slider/breaking ball mix.

Julian de Lavalle

by jdelavalle on Sep 13, 2006 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Could be

Could he just have a strained elbow, again, or is it really as bad as everyone is saying in this post? I like to be a little positive here.

by ChrisRef19 on Sep 13, 2006 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

well

it's hard to say it's "just a strained elbow, again." because if someone goes down with an elbow strain, and in their first start back they have the same injury after only two innings, it makes you think that it was more than just a strained elbow in the first place. combined with the other issues (his poor mechanics, his injury history, the way his arm dangled after the pitch), it makes me think this must be serious.

by Dfarth on Sep 13, 2006 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

cascade injury?

Sounds to me as if (to use Will Carrol's term) this is a cascade injury. This occurs when one injury (shoulder in this case) causes a player to alter his motion, swing, running style, etc. In other words, if Liriano was trying to compensate for the weak/sore shoulder he might have altered his mechanics and injured the elbow. Let's hope it's nothing serious!

"When people talk, listen completely. Most people never listen." (Hemingway)

by jmoultz on Sep 13, 2006 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Twins took a risk

pitching him again this year and they got burned. They are playing for the postseason, so I really don't blame him.

Let's just hope this injury isn't as bad as it sounds.

by mcq fesijiba on Sep 13, 2006 4:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is why...

even if Paps is ready for the Sox, they will NOT put him in any games. The Twins will look real stupid if this guy is hurt badly. Yes, I know they were trying to get into the playoffs, but this is the future ace, who has a huge upside. Why risk that? They have a young team and will be in the chase for years to come.

by ChrisRef19 on Sep 13, 2006 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Don't Get

How you can blame the Twins for this?

I mean, they made him pass every thinkable test and obstacle before they decided to send him back out to the mound. He had the most extensive tests, bullpen sessions, simulated games, and even a rehab start and the guy didn't have one single setback.

If you were the manager or GM of a team that was on the brink of something special, and you're 2nd ace type pitcher had shown he was healthy enough to return, you're saying you wouldn't have decided to let him pitch again?

Sickels for President.

by StatFreakNYM on Sep 13, 2006 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure...

The Twins are 1.5 games out of the Central, and 1.5 games up in the Wild Card. They are a young team with potential to win it all, with or with out Liriano. Yes, their chances are MUCH greater WITH F.L, but for me I would not rush into getting him back. As long as they are up in the wild card, keep this guy on the pine. Extend his timetable, have him snap his slider more in practice, and monitor him until you absolutely need him.

I get your comments on him meeting the standards of their timetable, but I don't agree they needed him right away. 7-4 in their last 11 games, so where is the urgency to get this guy back?? So he rehabbed and did what he had to... good. They had him on a 60-pitch limit and he couldn't even get to 30, so how does he go from ready to pitch to shut down in a couple days?

Who do we blame if we have to blame someone? Knowing his mechanics and slider action, seeing him be in pain sometime ago, why even risk it? My finger would go to anyone who thought it was ok for him to pitch this early.

by ChrisRef19 on Sep 14, 2006 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

From Another Post...

[new] Liriano too
Obviously not confirmed yet until he gets a full examination, but considering he had a minor UCL strain heading into the start, then heard a pop in his elbow followed by some serious pain, my best guess is a UCL tear

by ChrisRef19 on Sep 14, 2006 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Question for someone more knowlegable than me

Was this elbow injury inevitable? The poster I'm responding to and many others in this thread are blaming the Twins, which may be the best place for the blame....but I can't help but wonder if he'd have been shut down for the year, if we wouldn't be in this same place in July of next year. I know very little about pitching mechanics so was this something with the strain he puts on his elbow that was inevitable or would rest really have made things better next year?

by joerote on Sep 14, 2006 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My Guess

Is that it was bound to happen.

If he couldn't have had it happen yesterday, it probably would've occured somewhere down the road.

Sickels for President.

by StatFreakNYM on Sep 14, 2006 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Liriano

I saw the game. I knew as soon as he threw it he did something wrong. It just did not look like a typical follow through from him and then the ball missed the spot.

He then walked off the mound in a bit of disgust and obviously in pain.

I think he injured it pretty badly. But I am not a doctor or the trainer so I wouldn't know how bad.

I hate seeing great young pitchers go down like that and I hope there is no long term damage.

by VtTigers on Sep 13, 2006 4:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Watching him

Watching the game, he looked lights out, great as before in the first two innings and even though Swisher scrubbed a hit off him, he made him look like a corkscrew when he missed a lovely change up.

It was the old Liriano if you ask me and then the pitch that ended it.

I hope it's nothing too serious, but I doubt he's back this year.

I won't get married until the Red Sox win the World Series. AGAIN!!

by Shep on Sep 13, 2006 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

re

Same thing happened to Brandon Backe. I'm very scared for Rich Harden's return next week.

by bootsy on Sep 13, 2006 9:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

SportsCenter

said that he heard a pop when he released the ball. That's not good. TJ is probably in his near future unfortunately.

by Tyler on Sep 13, 2006 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Liriano

First, having an elbow injury isn't anything to sneeze at. Sure, there have been guys who have come back from that surgery, but do you really want to have Kerry Wood or AJ Burnett as comps? How about Steve Karsay? There are plenty of guys who regain their velocity, but that isn't all there is to pitching. Command, movement, deception and mechanics all play a role, and an elbow injury impacts all of them (as would a shoulder injury). There is a reason some of these guys keep getting hurt, even after a TJ or shoulder surgery. There are no guarantees.
FWIW, if he felt a pop, odds are it is his UCL, meaning TJ surgery is likely. HIs future, once as bright as any recent young pitcher, just got significantly dimmer.
JAS

by jasvlm on Sep 13, 2006 10:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i called this way back

First, the Twins beating around the bush with the forearm pain, then finally the elbow confirmed.. It just seemed like destiny to have the career (at least temporarily) ruined by some damn elbow injury. It just seemed like it, i guess i just had a lucky (or unlucky) feeling.. I'm not surprised at this though.

(After pitcher tells GM he will pitch half of the games, complete them and they will all be QS)The GM has an orgasm and a heart attack at the same time.-Shamus

by ohad on Sep 14, 2006 1:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Twins are irresponsible

This is unacceptable for an organization to allow a young phenom with arm issues to try and bring him back too soon. I cannot believe they didn't just shut him down and be cautious in this situation. They should have protected him.

by yoda1 on Sep 14, 2006 10:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If

You go back and look at his age 17 to 20 years it's a mircle he stayed healthy this long.

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Sep 14, 2006 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I tend...

... to disagree with that. His arm had been sore so they shut him down for a while. He had passed every test though since then to show that he was healthy. He even pitched a very effective rehab start. They must have been all over him, testing to see how the arm was after that and found him to be in good enough shape to start.

If he hadnt got hurt yesterday and dominated, noone would complain that they rushed him back and risked major injury. People only say that now with the hindsight that he did get hurt. They obviously didnt have that hindsight when they made the decision and all the evidence that they had pointed to him being ready.

Even as a Tigers fan, I am sad to see him likely to miss 2007 and run the risk of never regaining the success he has been having. It was a delight to watch him every time he took the mound. He consistantly amazed with his stuff and control. I can only hope that he comes back in 2008 with the same stuff that he has now. Hes going to have a tough road ahead of him but he can make it.

I wish him the best of luck in his recovery and I look forward to my Tigers battling him for years to come.

by grozzy on Sep 14, 2006 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Second-Guessing The Twins

So where were all the Twins second-guessers a couple of days ago? I just searched the diaries, and couldn't find any "Twins, please don't start Liriano on Wednesday" diaries or messages.

by Steve F on Sep 14, 2006 10:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Second Guessing

I would bet the Twins are second guessing themselves now also. But, if I understand it, ligaments don't really heal. So waiting until next spring wouldn't have done any good if the problem really is a torn ligament.

by TT on Sep 14, 2006 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apparently Liriano heard TWO pops in the elbow

"'The last two pitches I threw, I felt a pop and it really hurts,' Liriano said.

Liriano walked slowly toward the dugout and fans gave him a standing ovation -- clearly, they were wondering whether they had seen the last of him this year.

The Twins, leading the AL wild-card race, announced later that he had pain in his left elbow.

He had an MRI exam after the game, and thoughts immediately turned to Tommy John surgery, a ligament-replacement procedure that typically keeps pitchers out for more than a year.

Liriano said he has was waiting to hear from team doctors about the next move.

"I don't even want to think about that," Twins pitching coach Rick Anderson said when asked about Tommy John surgery. "

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260913109

by VtTigers on Sep 14, 2006 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

ESPN again

MRI shows no new structural damage: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2587796

by OneHitWonder on Sep 14, 2006 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Question

I've heard both hear and elsewhere that the ligament doesn't really heal on it's own. But if that is the case why did Harden & Liriano rest so long? Wasn't it to allow the ligament time to heal?

Also, if the ligament can heal - what the hell were the twins thinking putting him out there without doing an MRI first to detect if the tear did in fact heal.

This tear was detected in August and is the same now. I'm guessing he has to radically alter his delivery (which isn't good) or this will come back. I really think he will be looking at TJ mid or late next year when the innings pile up. I hope not but don't have much confidence.

by pedrophile on Sep 16, 2006 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs