AL MVP?

Re: MVP

You know, i've been wondering something lately as I hear the MVP debates, who should and who shouldn't win, and I hear different jusitifications from different people. And there seem to be some differences in defining the MVP:

"It's the Best PLayer, Period"
"The most important player to his team's success"
"The best player from the best team"

And a slew of other. Well, this seems like it's mostly interpretation, and I was wondering if Major League Baseball actually sits down to define what the MVP should be. Is this in writing somewhere? Is there a critera, or is there just an award that the baseball writers vote on randomly.

Anyone know?

by Jgaztambide on Sep 12, 2006 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nope

The MVP has ot been defined along any of those terms officially, that's the big annual debate. Everyone has different definitions and votes along their own definitions. itcher's are clearly eligible yet some votes won't vote for a pitcher at all even if he has had the most dominant season in 100 years.
Incidentally, I don't think Jeter fits any of those definitions you listed. He's not the best player on the best team (The yankees aren't the best team nor is he their best player). he's not the most important player to his team's success and he's not "the best player period."

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Sep 12, 2006 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

86-56

Last time I checked the Yankees were the best team in the AL. Unless, of course, you are using a better metric than Wins and Losses...

by rhodehead on Sep 12, 2006 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

jeter

well statistically jeter has been the best player on his team (most winshares, highest VORP, second highest OPS, leads team in steals, ECT.) also, as pointed out, the yankees are the best team in the league.

jeter is second in AL VORP (behind the injured hafner)

there is certainly a good argumement for jeter for MVP.

by bmxstreetrider86 on Sep 12, 2006 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who is then?

You state that Jeter is not the best player on his team. By what metric has he not been the best player on the team this season? Is he the most talented? No. Has he had the best year? Yes.

Jeter also leads the AL in WARP3 and Total Win Shares, so you actually could argue that he's been the best player period.

by jc3 on Sep 12, 2006 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Criteria

I wouldn't use any of the criteria above. The Yankees are far too loaded for any one player on the team to be an MVP, if anything it's Steinbrenner's bottomless pockets.
My MVP is Santana though. If the Sox were close to a playoff spot it would be ortiz, but that ship is long sailed. Santana has meant far more to his team than Jeter has and his team has needed him more.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Sep 12, 2006 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

rules

Here are the stated criteria:

Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
Number of games played.
General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
Former winners are eligible.
Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

If anything, this seems to suggest a "best individual player" approach. But unfortunately no one seems to read the rules of the very thing they're voting on.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Sep 12, 2006 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

so

Ortiz doesn't play defense (#1) and has recently bashed his team (#3 A, B & C)...

by williethekid20 on Sep 12, 2006 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter

i go jeter, with santana as the runner up, but of course i'm biased

for the first time since 1999/2000, jeter has the legit numbers to back him up and argue against the "overrated" tag...

-.391 w/RISP (more RBI than Ortiz w/RISP while having less AB's)
-tied for the league lead in win shares
-possible batting title with 40 doubles & 30 SB

matsui and sheff have been out almost all year, giambi and arod putting up sub-par numbers (though not terrible) and have been inconsistent

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 12, 2006 4:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If Mauer wins the batting title

Jeter will only have one MVP-type number. And he won't be the top player at that number. He's in the 30s in the other numbres writers look at (HRs, RBIs). If he wins the MVP while being second in BA and 35 in HR and RBI, it's official: The MVP goes to the best Yankees player. In other words, the MVP will officially become meaningless.

Some people say his defense counts. I agree, but how is his defense more valuable than Mauer's? Most baseball people think the catcher is more important than the shortstop because he touches the ball 130 times a game instead of 20.

cmathewson

by cmathewson on Sep 12, 2006 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

A-Rod was the first Yankee MVP since Mattingly in 1985, and he won deservingly. During the "dynasty" period (1996-2000), no Yankee won either an MVP or Cy Young.

You actually think that there is a Yankee bias when it comes to award voting? Where is the evidence?

by jc3 on Sep 12, 2006 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Evidence

Joe D vs Ted W:)

by rwperu34 on Sep 12, 2006 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ted W

that was because writers hated williams, not because they loved the yanks...but i understand you werent being completely serious

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 12, 2006 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Advanced metrics

There are many advanced stats out there that have Jeter as the most valuble position player in the AL. When you combine that with the fact that he's been so good for so long, I think it would be an easy (and correct) vote if the season ended today. This will be very simialr to 1995 when Barry Larkin (correctly) beat out Bichette, Maddux, and Piazza.

by rwperu34 on Sep 12, 2006 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mauer

How can he not be the slamdunk choice? The best defensive catcher in the league, and he's hitting .350/.433/.508, and he's on a contending team that has a decent chance of making an incredible comeback and winning the division.

IMO, his only real competition is Jeter, and Mauer is the easy choice b/c Mauer is an excellent defensive C, whereas Jeter is a mediocre SS.

I'd rank them:

Mauer
Jeter
Dye
Santana
Morneau
Ortiz
Hafner

by rp0806 on Sep 12, 2006 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

arguement against mauer

is that he has 2 other guys that are right in the discussion, santana just gets better and better after the all star break year after year and has really picked up the slack since liriano has gone down...and of course morneau too

i guess this gets into semantics, but how "valuable" is mauer if he has 2 other guys that are or are almost as valuable?

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 12, 2006 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

teammates

My feeling is that a player contributed what he contributed. What his teammates did isn't all that relevant. Mauer shouldn't be penalized because Santana and Morneau have also had good seasons. IMO, Mauer is the best player on the team and the best player in the league, and therefore deserves the MVP.

Besides, you could say the same about Jeter or any other candidate. Where would the Yankees be without Wang, Rivera, Damon, and Giambi?

by rp0806 on Sep 12, 2006 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ramirez

Oops...I'd put Manny after Santana I guess.

by rp0806 on Sep 12, 2006 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

jeter

Yes, Mauer, Morneau and Santana are all having great seasons, but because all three are playing so great, how can any one of them be the league MVP? In my mind, they are all about of equal importance to the Twins, thus making them not MVP in my mind. And I know that Jeter is surrounded by very good players, too, but none of them are having the kind of season that the 3 Twins (triplets?) are having.

And Ortiz isn't even in my Top 10. Manny would be in my Top 5. Hafner might be up there, too, though his injury might drop him down a couple of places. Maybe it would look something like this:

Jeter
Mauer
Manny
Morneau
Dye
Santana
Hafner

and maybe a Frank Thomas and Wang near the bottom of my Top 10, too.

by sabernar on Sep 12, 2006 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Funny

I know that Jeter is surrounded by very good players, too, but none of them are having the kind of season that the 3 Twins (triplets?) are having.

Wang, Giambi, Abreau, even A-Rod have had very good years. Jeter is surrounded by all stars. Mauer, not so much.

cmathewson

by cmathewson on Sep 12, 2006 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

arod and giambi

have not had very good years, in fact theyve had sub par years (its not arod bashing, i support him, its just a fact)

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 12, 2006 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ahem

A-Rod .383/.517
Giambi .411/.564
Damon .370/.500
Cano .363/.490
Posada .379/.477

Does anybody really think Mauer has had more support than Jeter?

by rwperu34 on Sep 12, 2006 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sub-Par?

Sub-par for them maybe (depends on what you expect from post-steroid Giambi), but the doesn't change that they are elite hitters have excellent (relative to the rest of the league) seasons.

by jn4 on Sep 12, 2006 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

true

i agree their production relative to the league is very good, but my point is that the team was built with intention of arod and giambi being more productive than theyve been, and its jeter thats picked up the slack not that mauer necessarily has a better overall supporting cast

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 12, 2006 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah....

Darn that Giambi for being only 6th in the league in RC/G!!

And that AFraud!! He's 2nd among 3B behind Teahen!! Come on!! You can hit better than Mark Teahan, right??

You're right. Those guys have been terrible this season....

Shameless plug: Visit www.kevinappleby.com. Say hi.

by KevinApps on Sep 13, 2006 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yanks vs Twins Support

I'll use Win Shares Above Bench here (#'s are thourhg 9/4 and taken from Hardballtimes).

Yankees:
Jeter - 16 (T3 in AL)
Giambi - 13 (T9)
Damon - 12 (T12)
Posada - 11
ARod - 9
Wang - 9

Twins:
Mauer - 16 (T3)
Santana - 15 (T6)
Morneau - 13 (T9)
Liriano - 12 (T12)
Nathan - 10
Cuddyer - 9

I don't see how there's a big difference in the support each player has gotten. There's only a difference in the perceptions.

Giambi is disappointing, Morneau has mashed -- they're tied in WSAB.....
ARod sucks!! Oh wait, he's been the 3rd-best 3B in the AL this year....

Shameless plug: Visit www.kevinappleby.com. Say hi.

by KevinApps on Sep 13, 2006 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter

A few reasons:

He's 2nd in the AL in VORP, behind only Hafner
He leads all AL position players in WARP3
He's statistically playing a league average SS by both Rate2 and Win Share data, certainly good enough
He's been the best and most consistent player on the best team in the league and led the team early in the season when they were struggling with injuries
In the biggest series of the season, he arguably got the 2 biggest hits of the series (3- run double off of Timlin, 2-out game-tying hit off of Papelbon).

I don't know what else the guy can do to win the MVP. I'd vote Mauer #2 and Dye #3.

by jc3 on Sep 12, 2006 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually...

As of Tuesday the 12th Jeter is Behind Hafner and Santana in AL VORP.

by chris in illinois on Sep 13, 2006 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Point taken

That should have read "AL hitters"...

by jc3 on Sep 13, 2006 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BTW

As of today, Jeter is ahead of Santana in VORP. Slightly (75 - 74.8), but ahead.

by jc3 on Sep 13, 2006 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"We're trying to win the (AL East)...

No one cares about individual awards." Great comment by Jeter in today's NY Post.

Well, if David Ortiz had a vote, it would be for himself. The guy basically slams his entire lineup and comes off sounding like a pretty big whiner. I don't claim to know the guy, but some of those quotes from yesterday seem uncharacteristic. Has he been hanging around Curt Schilling lately? Campaigning for yourself for an individual award is a bit lame, in my opinion.

"They're talking about [Derek] Jeter a lot, right? He's done a great job, but Jeter is not a 40-homer hitter or an RBI guy. It doesn't matter how much you've done for your ballclub, the bottom line is, the guy who hits 40 home runs and knocks in 100, that's the guy you know
helped your team win games."

by rhodehead on Sep 12, 2006 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Jeter has 91 RBI

That's pretty impressive for a number 2 hitter. He's no slouch in that department, I think.

Homers is another issue, but I think he makes up for it in other areas as states throughout this diary.

by OneHitWonder on Sep 12, 2006 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

I'm a Sox fan, and this if the first time I've ever seen Papi take such a me-first attitude. Even if you put the ethics of such a statement aside, it's counterproductive, since if anything it makes people NOT want to vote for you.

Made me wince to read it. Even if he has a point (which I think he does, to a certain extent), it was a stupid, idiotic thing to say.

Although did Jeter really say they were playing for the AL East? That seems rather silly too.

by abbreviatedman on Sep 12, 2006 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't worry about...

...Ortiz's comments. Losing causes frustration, anybody might say something they don't really mean in that situation. It's a crappy time to be in that clubhouse, for anybody.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Sep 12, 2006 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

am I

the only one who thinks hitting in front of Ortiz and Manny would be as good if not better for Jeter's production?

by williethekid20 on Sep 12, 2006 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

come on

"We're trying to win the (AL East)...
No one cares about individual awards." Great comment by Jeter in today's NY Post.

That's just a standard ballplayer cliche. It's right out of "Bull Durham."

by rp0806 on Sep 12, 2006 5:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

cliche

cliches are truisms and truisms are true
Jack Kerouac

by rwperu34 on Sep 12, 2006 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is anyone else

Sick of the "he's the best player on the best team" argument. How often does that come up with a player who actually deserves an MVP. If the Giants had been the second best team in the NL throughout Barry's rediculous run would he have deserved the MVP...Hell yes...because without him they might go from 2nd best to 10th. That argument has absolutely no merit with me.

by Dfarth on Sep 12, 2006 5:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Tiebreaker

I see it as a tiebreaker. As a general matter, I think the MVP should go to the best player (Mauer IMO), even if that player is on a losing team. But if two players have had comparable seasons, I'd give it to the player on the contending team.

by rp0806 on Sep 12, 2006 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This thread is a month too early

It's really too close to call. If one player falters or someone else gets hots next week, the MVP race could change instantly.

If the season ended right now...well, I'd still vote for Hafner.

by Ian Miller on Sep 12, 2006 5:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Jeter

I'm firmly in the camp that Jeter is overrated, but he has had an amazing year. If he ever deserved an MVP award, it would be this year. The way I look at it for support on his own team, is mostly if players on his team will split votes.

No on else on the Yankees is going to get all that many votes, as opposed to the Twins, where the three of them will split votes like nobodies business, and none of them have a chance at winning. As for the winning argument, I think the MVP needs to be from a winning team unless there is no one who fits the bill, an example being the year A-Rod beat Delgado.

Otherwise I'd like to know what would be seperating Jeter from a guy like Vernon Wells, who was amazing this year. Or Hafner.

So, as for predictions, I think Jeter will win but I'd vote for Morneau, the way his season and the Twins season turnarounds were so closely linked, I think that he was the most valuable player to his team's winning season.

Rios is the next Juan Gonzales, thats right, I said it.

by KaoticKlown on Sep 12, 2006 6:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Santana

He is the only one carrying his entire team on his back and is far better than anyone at his position.

by yoda1 on Sep 12, 2006 7:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Santana

Santana has been amazing, but I don't think he's been miles ahead of Halladay. Plus, who is carrying the Twins the other 80% of the games. If you really want to look at it that way, then I think that whoever wins the Cy Young is really the most valuable player in the league, since pitching wins. But I've always felt that an everyday player should win the MVP, because they're out doing it for their team everyday.

Rios is the next Juan Gonzales, thats right, I said it.

by KaoticKlown on Sep 12, 2006 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter

a little off topic i suppose, but i'd be interested to see a sabermetric breakdown between Jeter's 1999 season and this year to see which is the best of his career...

in '99 he set career high's in runs (134), hits (219), doubles (37), triples (9), HR (24), RBI (102), BB (91), AVG (.349), OBP (.438), SLG (.552), and OPS (.990)...doubles, AVG and RBI could possibly be eclipsed this year

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 12, 2006 7:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Easy answer

his 1999 season was way better. 100+ vorp. Winshares didn't exist yet, but they'd have been a lot higher too. Jeter was by far the best position player in all of MLB that year--the only guy better than him was Pedro. The fact that Jeter finished 6th or whatever in MVP voting tells you how much that award means.

by SirCaptain on Sep 13, 2006 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Santana

Come on...he's not even the Cy. It's gotta be Halladay or Verlander.

After all, they already have the Warren Spahn award for lefthanders.

by limozeen on Sep 12, 2006 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

The Warren Spahn award is his but he's already won one so maybe liriano should get it I mean it's not like sports writer's acually use these things to vote for HOF I mean does a player really need more than one of these Awards To prove thier worth I think not.

(BTW I know you're a twins fan a were being sarcastic as was I)

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Sep 13, 2006 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are you insane?

There's a good chance Santana will win the pitching triple crown. He's miles ahead of the other starters in the AL.

by rp0806 on Sep 13, 2006 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I apologize...

if you were being sarcastic.

Didn't see this: (BTW I know you're a twins fan a were being sarcastic as was I)

by rp0806 on Sep 13, 2006 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Id take Jeter...

Just because it has been a sick year from him, he has made huge improvements defensively, and what he means to the Yankees...

If anyone would prefer Ortiz, they'd have to take Travis Hafner over him who has the higher OBP, SLG, and VORP in a tougher park. Can't argue that Ortiz is playing for a winning team this year can you?

Julian de Lavalle

by jdelavalle on Sep 13, 2006 1:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not really arguing for Papi.

But an interesting fact on him benefiting from being in a hitter's park: he led the AL in HRs on the road each of the previous two years ('04 and '05) and I believe he's a virtual lock to do it again.

by abbreviatedman on Sep 13, 2006 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well

I voted for Johan, and it looks like he's winning the poll.

Among hitters & fielders0, I'd vote for Mauer--hitting like we knew he could, AND handling that pitching staff. Second, I'd vote for Sizemore. For me, Jeter falls in 3rd or 4th place, batting among a stacked NY lineup. Also, until we figure out how much Jeter's defensive metrics have benefitted from playing alongside ARod, I'd hold off on praising a guy notorious for his lack of range.

by Azteca on Sep 13, 2006 11:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Interesting Data

Makes a decent case for Jermaine Dye, which is unfortunate because as a Twins fan I was hoping to promote Morneau's candidacy when I put this data together:

Here is a look at the numbers for each offensive candidate against other AL contenders: A's, Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Twins, ChiSox. (included the Red Sox because Jeter would have had too few AB's for his to mean anything without counting them)

Morneau (50 Games, 189 AB's): 25R, 10 HR, 40 RBI... 339/387/556

Jeter: (38 G's, 153 AB's): 30R, 2 HR, 26 RBI....301/385/418

Mauer: (46 G's, 164 AB's): 21R, 5HR, 21 RBI 323/410/457

Dye: (44 G's, 169 AB's): 35R, 18 HR, 44 RBI 343/400/710

by jn4 on Sep 13, 2006 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

most valuable player

The award is most valuable player, NOT most valuable player relative to position.

Joe Mauer is not the most valuable player in the American League. He fields his position about 60-70% of the time, DH's seemingly every other day in the 2nd half of the year, and is being topped offensively by quite a few other MVP candidates.

His defense brings him into the running for the MVP though since most of the other candidates are DH/1B types.

I'd take Johan simply because without his starts, the Twins are probably looking at a top 5-10 draft pick instead of the Wild Card.

Rays in '08....

by youALREADYknow on Sep 13, 2006 12:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

don't know what you mean

position, and skill at that position, is entirely relevant.

by Azteca on Sep 13, 2006 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

That's the point of VORP or Win Shares Above Bench, isn't it?

Power numbers (HR, RBI, OPS, etc.) will almost always favor 1B, OF, and DH's. If we are going to base the MVP award on numbers without context, then we will get a SS MVP extremely rarely, e.g. A-Rod at his best.

by jc3 on Sep 13, 2006 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Papi

look, It doesn't matter how much you've done for your ball club, the bottom line is, the guy who hits 40 home runs and knocks in 100, that's the guy you know helped your team win games.

but seriously, i completely agree, thats exactly the point of VOPR, to be objective and not get overly excited about flashy numbers (ie HR, RBI) and forget about other factors

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 13, 2006 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mauer

The award is most valuable player, NOT most valuable player relative to position.

Agreed.

Joe Mauer is not the most valuable player in the American League. He fields his position about 60-70% of the time, DH's seemingly every other day in the 2nd half of the year, and is being topped offensively by quite a few other MVP candidates.

No one is arguing that Mauer should win b/c he's the most valuable relative to his position. He should win because C is one of the most important positions on the field, and he's a great defensive C, and he's having a great year offensively. All of that makes him the valuable player in the AL. A good hitting C or SS is worth more than a good hitting RF or 1B because of defense. That's why I'd put Mauer first and Jeter second.

by rp0806 on Sep 13, 2006 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Joe's defense

Lost in Mauer's defense is that he's coaxed and cajoled four rookie starters through morderate success (24-22) this season. The Twins have used 10 starters because of injuries and ineffectiveness, and Mauer has kept the pitching staff and the team rolling along through all that. That has to count for something.

cmathewson

by cmathewson on Sep 13, 2006 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mauer

does mauer deserve most of the credit for that or does the coaching staff? does mauer even call the pitches or does he get them from the bench?

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 13, 2006 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He

does call his own pitches Gardy doesn't like to call them form the bench. The Rick Anderson Does deserve a lot of the Credit for bringing along the Rookies.

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Sep 14, 2006 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As long as it's not Morneau, I'm good

An MVP season should be just that - an MVP SEASON. Back when I saw Morneau in June, he still looked hopeless. You can't have two wretched months out of six and still be the MVP.

by historypeats on Sep 13, 2006 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

June

he hit .364 in june, .400/.737/1.137 (obp/slg/ops)

may was an iffy month .333/.505/.839

april was a terrible month .274/.416/.689

i cant disqualify him for having 77 horrendous AB's, every MLB player goes into slumps

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 13, 2006 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

But every MVP doesn't.

by abbreviatedman on Sep 13, 2006 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1 month

doesnt 3 spectacular and 2 solid months more than make up for 1 terrible one? especially when those great months coencided with when the twins made their move

i'm not campaigning for morneau, but players cant be dismissed for just 1 reason, it needs to be a handful of reasons...you cant dismiss Santana just because he's a pitcher, or Jeter just because he doesnt have a high HR total

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 13, 2006 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well.

I think you kind of can eliminate someone for one reason. I mean, that's what happened to Ortiz last year. Essentially, given the high standard of MVP performance, if you've got a knock against you, you have little chance to make it. Morneau's overall numbers are very good, even if they're not quite up there with Manny and Ortiz and Dye, among the power hitters (not to mention Hafner). He's got three and a half MVP months, but his other two months (.208/.274/.416 and .274/.333/.505) can't simply be ignored, and ultimately bring his numbers down to where I seriously doubt he'll get better than third.

by abbreviatedman on Sep 13, 2006 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ortiz

i dont completely buy that he was discounted just because he's a DH, he wasnt far and away better than arod offensively, win share based, AROD actually topped ortiz last year for offense

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 13, 2006 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't win shares account for defense?

I don't think there are many people who would say that if Ortiz had played 1B (even a bad one) he wouldn't have walked away with that award.

by abbreviatedman on Sep 14, 2006 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

win shares

on hardballtimes.com, they broke the WS down into categories as well...Arod had 33.3 Batting WS and ortiz had 31.4

by nyybaseball99 on Sep 14, 2006 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Agreed on how the last two weeks will affect the winner quite a bit. Also on the Twins splitting votes. And in the defence of my vote for Morneau, it was because during his struggles, the Twins were an under .500 team. Mauer was still hitting like .400, and Santana wasn't quite as dominant as the second half, but he was still really good. And even with those two things, they weren't winning. Morneau heated up, and they took off. So that's why he'd get my vote.

Rios is the next Juan Gonzales, thats right, I said it.

by KaoticKlown on Sep 14, 2006 9:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs