Best DP combo all time

had to be

rey ordonez to edgardo alfonzo

now they were my favorite and the best that i ever saw...im not going to say best ever because i haven't seen enough of them to make that distinction but these guys HAVE to be in the discussion

by Rob Castellano on Jul 4, 2006 4:21 PM EDT reply actions

alfonzo/ordonez?

Yeah, they're in the discussion, as comic relief . . .

Some classic combos, in addition to Trammell/Whitaker:

Joe Morgan/David Concepcion
Davey Lopes/Bill Russell
Bobby Grich/Mark Belanger
Ryne Sandberg/Shawon Dunston
Joe Tinker/Johnny Evers
Robin Yount/Jim Gantner
Joe Gordon/Lou Boudreau
Jackie Robinson/Pee Wee Reese
Derek Jeter/Alfonso Soriano

My top five, if I were starting a team:

Morgan/Concepcion
Trammell/Whitaker
Reese/Robinson
Yount/Gantner
Jeter/ Soriano

by gogotabata on Jul 4, 2006 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Are you kidding?

Jeter and Soriano? Seriously?

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Jul 4, 2006 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions

comic relief?

you obviously never saw them play. for all that ordonez couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag he could field about 20 times better than jeter. and fonzie was great until he had his back injury. i'm guessing maybe you were too young to watch those guys and think of alfonzo as he is now, instead of how he was on the mets. also, to back up crimson, jeter/soriano? possibly in the running for worst DP combo of all-time. you do know that turning the double play is about defense, right? jeter and soriano are two great offensive players, but their defense is a farce.

by DavidWrightismyGod on Jul 4, 2006 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions

so

is it best defensive DP combo ever, or best 2B/SS combo? Because I find it hard to believe that Jeter/Soriano's admittedly poor D completely negates their major offensive mojo.

I think people get a little overly-carried-away with the Jeter is overrated gospel. He's still a hell of a player. Maybe they got those rings in spite of him?

I mean, turning double plays is nice, but so is scoring runs. I'd actually probably slide Vizquel/Alomar past Jeter and Soriano, but Alfonzo/Ordonez? What's the difference between them and Carlos Baerga/Felix Fermin? Roly poly hitter at second, no hit flashy shortstop.

I think Lopez/Betancourt are probably my favorite DP combo going right now . . .

by gogotabata on Jul 4, 2006 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Pretty clear

The subject is 'best DP combo'. jeter and Soriano don't deserve to eb anywhere near a defensive discussion. They're both darn fine hitters but neither is a prize defensively.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Jul 4, 2006 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Then why

are Brandon Wood & Howie Kendrick, neither of which noted for his glove, cited as the instigation for the question, and cited as the potentially the best DP combo for the future? From the initial post, I took it to be best DP combo in general, not just at turning the double-play (cuz I doubt Kendrick-Wood would be anyone's idea of a slick combo).

by gogotabata on Jul 4, 2006 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Not buying it

When's the last time someone turned a DP with his bat?
Jeter and Soriano are very good hitters, but this clearly isn't a bat discussion. What next, Jeter and Knoblauch? lol

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Jul 4, 2006 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Jesus F'in Christmas

Did you just not even bother reading what I just wrote? -- the topic, as I read it, is NOT just turning a double-play, because then Wood-Kendrick wouldn't make sense. It's DP combo, in other words, 2B-SS combo, as players, including fielding, hitting, etc.

While I'm at it: your tag doesn't make any sense, by the way.

But you're right on one thing, no one turns a DP with a bat. But, you do apparently read and type posts with one stuck in your CrimsonPooperholesen.

by gogotabata on Jul 4, 2006 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Apologies to John & the rest

Got overly irritated, but it's like trying to argue with a potted plant.

by gogotabata on Jul 4, 2006 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions

well actually

its you who misunderstood...you were right when you said it wasn't a question of just defense but the key word in the diary was favorite, not best

and you were the first to point out that apparently my favorite combo of fonzy and rey was wrong...so i guess i actually have another favorite dp combo and i didnt even know it...?

before you dismiss other people's opinions its usually best to make sure that you're not glaringly wrong

by Rob Castellano on Jul 4, 2006 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions

even better

maybe don't dismiss opinions altogether...because they're opinions

by Rob Castellano on Jul 4, 2006 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions

c'mon, buddy

you said that they were in the discussion for best ever. I'm saying no way.

don't dismiss opinions, because they're opinions? what's the fun in that?

by gogotabata on Jul 4, 2006 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh my god!!

Can't we all just get along. We all have the same thing in common--we love baseball. We all love to talk baseball!! OK, I admit, debating is somewhat the purpose of this site, but not to this point!

-Scott

by yanksfan6129 on Jul 4, 2006 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions

I tried to stop

then Robcast rode thru on his high horse

by gogotabata on Jul 4, 2006 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions

my bad

sorry, i didn't realize that if i posted you were obligated to respond...if you're gonna stop, stop...but don't put it on me if you can't or won't

i'm not even saying you should have because as much as everyone else badmouths these dragged out discussion thread or "pissing contests", i actually think they're a good thing because people get so passionate about their perspectives and you end up getting a lot more out of them than from just the same old stuff...where it crosses the line is when it gets personal (like if you're insulting someone's tag) but otherwise i don't see why people hate them so much

but don't blame me if you won't stop...whether i'm on some high horse or not, you typed the respone, you pressed post

by Rob Castellano on Jul 5, 2006 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions

I understand

his tag. I think its quite clever.

by Boxkutter on Jul 4, 2006 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions

explain it to me

Ok, so he's saying Felix rests more often than God (leaving alone the fact that Felix rests four days out of every five [that is, it's perpetual] while God's seven days lasted just one duration, a week [that is, it isn't perpetual]) -- but Felix's nickname is King Felix; wouldn't it make more sense to debunk by comparing Felix to royalty ("King Solomon had eighteen wives; King Felix only has three pitches")?

Who was calling him God Felix, or Felix H. Christ, or Holy Hernandez? That's why I don't think it makes sense. Each side of the equation makes sense by itself, but I don't see how the two sides relate.

Might as well say "The City of Atlantis is underwater; Felix throws overhand" or something like that . . .

by gogotabata on Jul 4, 2006 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions

psst

this entire site has become one big pissing contest. Too bad.

by grandslam on Jul 4, 2006 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Nellie Fox and Luis Aparicio

nUFF SAID.

by maggsmaggs on Jul 4, 2006 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Morgan & Concepcion

each have 5 Gold Gloves

by Havok1517 on Jul 4, 2006 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Vizquel and Alomar

Vizquel and Alomar each had 10 gold gloves (and possibly still counting for Omar), including a clean sweep 6 for 6 during their 3 years playing together in Cleveland.

by APV @ Minor League Ball on Jul 4, 2006 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions

hmmm....

Morgan & Concepcion

Vizquel & Alomar

A. Gonzalez & Castillo (Marlins)

I think Wilson & Castillo (Pit) are currently the best.

by Havok1517 on Jul 4, 2006 4:38 PM EDT reply actions

Actives

Defensively, I like Pittsburgh (Wilson/Castillo) and Seattle (Betancourt/Lopez).

Weighing offense more heavily, it'd be hard to argue with the Yankees or Phillies duos.

by Mr Met @ Minor League Ball on Jul 4, 2006 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions

C'mon

Tinkers and Evers

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Jul 4, 2006 4:42 PM EDT reply actions

Larkin & Reese

could pick it

by Havok1517 on Jul 4, 2006 4:51 PM EDT reply actions

Vizquel and Alomar

Definetly the prettiest double play combo I ever saw.

by StormAesir on Jul 4, 2006 5:45 PM EDT reply actions

Good one

Man could they make some plays wow.

by goalieguy on Jul 4, 2006 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Nellie Fox and Luis Aparicio

Two Hall of Famers, Gold Glovers, come on guys, the Keystone Combo is the best of all-time. Not even close, well maybe.

by maggsmaggs on Jul 4, 2006 5:53 PM EDT reply actions

Boone/Guillen

was great

by Corco on Jul 4, 2006 5:56 PM EDT reply actions

Defence

Vizquel and Alomar if we're talking just defence, they were magical.

Rios is the next Juan Gonzales, thats right, I said it.

by KaoticKlown on Jul 4, 2006 6:00 PM EDT reply actions

Counsell and Hudson

dfgwdfh

by Shane Cobb on Jul 4, 2006 6:49 PM EDT reply actions

Dick Groat and Bill Mazeroski

Would have to be on the list is we are looking at defense alone.

by TT @ Minor League Ball on Jul 4, 2006 7:56 PM EDT reply actions

Manny Lee and Nelson Liriano

Talk about some comic releif!

by bunner19 @ Minor League Ball on Jul 4, 2006 8:14 PM EDT reply actions

Luis Rivas and Christian Guzman

It had to be said.

by limozeen on Jul 4, 2006 9:14 PM EDT reply actions

You're kidding, right?

No, seriously, everyone knows it's Mike Lansing/Jose Offerman. ;)

by drjayphd on Jul 5, 2006 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions

Angel Berroa and Ruben Gotay trump them easily.

by limozeen on Jul 5, 2006 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions

Larry Bowa and Manny Trillo

On the late 70s, early 80 Phillies.

by baseball006 on Jul 4, 2006 9:39 PM EDT reply actions

They were better when they were

with the Cubs......lol

by HuskerBob on Jul 5, 2006 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions

em...

Cano and Jeter!

-Scott

by yanksfan6129 on Jul 4, 2006 9:46 PM EDT reply actions

my dp pet peeve

i should have listed this in one of the old pet peeve diaries...

it bugs me when people are like "tinker to evers. easily best all time".of ..who actually saw them play?

i HATE when people pound their chest about "the alltime best" dp combos and do so pretty vehemently (which seems to happen with this more than in any other comparisons) when most of the references people make are to players and combos that they've never seen...who saw tinker or evers? how about jackie robinson and reese? maybe a handful of us saw joe gordon and lou boudreau...

i'm not saying any of those duos couldn't have been the best but i don't see how anyone can argue so hard for a dp combination that they've never even seen play together...this is something based on chemistry and how thoroughly 2 people know each other's game, clearly things that cannot be calculated or quantified, they have to be observed...so how do we really know 100 years later about the chemistry that existed between joe tinker and johnny evers in 1905? and don't say that writers of the day wrote about it because they had probably never seen a truly great dp combo before so of course they wrote up that one...

so basically i think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and there really is no one final answer

by Rob Castellano on Jul 4, 2006 11:28 PM EDT reply actions

well...

People can make opinions on players when they read about them. Obviously, if newspapers were raving about Tinker and Evers, and there was a poem written about them, chances are they were pretty damn good. Also, there are defensive stats from the dead-ball era (none of which really capture a player's defensive value, but they help with the discussion).

There's nothing wrong with people discussing players before their time, as long as they've done some research.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Jul 5, 2006 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm tempted to agree...

But I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Tinker to Evers was incredibly overrated and the poem wasn't actually all that factual? Just because the media writes something or someone is good/bad doesn't mean they are right, I've heard Todd Jones deified in the papers this year and Adam Dunn trashed.

by DVicknabb on Jul 5, 2006 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

exactly

so again, how can you argue for something that you've never seen? especially like a dp combo which is something that more than almost anything else in baseball is something you have to see to really evaluate

it just seems senseless to me to base pretty much your entire opinion (on dp combos) solely on what you've read and heard rumored, knowing how warped some writers views are and how blown out of proportion some things can get

not saying that tinker & evers aren't the best but i just can't see how anyone can argue for them based on rumors and hearsay

by Rob Castellano on Jul 5, 2006 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Chances are...

Tinker and Evers aren't the only DP combo in this thread that people haven't nominated without seeing. Chances are, many of posts regarding minor league prospects in here are made without seeing them. A lot of what people base their opinions on is the opinions of other informed individuals, when that is the only info available.

For example, I have never seen Ozzie Smith play. All I know, is that people who have seen him, and know the game, say he was amazing. So, I will rank him ahead of a lot of people I have seen. I do not think that is wrong.

Also, writers can be wacky, but it wasn't just one writer flying off the handle on Tinker and Evers, it was a whole bunch of them. They were both elected to the Hall of Fame, primarily for their defense. Which means that 70% of the Writers Association was convinced that their defensive skills were Hall of Fame caliber.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Jul 5, 2006 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions

true

but my issue isn't just with those 2, its with anyone who people have never even seen clips of and will argue so vehemently for

i also never saw ozzie and also regard his defense very highly but when it comes to dp combos, i'm going to pick one that i've seen over one with him in it every time because i KNOW the one that i saw with my own 2 eyes was great, i didn't have to take somebody's word for it or research and compile a lot of information that may or may not be completely accurate or unbiased

i always revere tinker and evers for their legendary D but i won't argue for them or anyone else i never saw because:

a lot of former and current sports writers do; in my experience sports writers are wrong more than they're right because more often than not they form opinions more to make a name for themselves than for accuracy's sake...same goes for sports writers who pick for the hall which is why...
i won't argue for them because they're in the hall of fame...on top of the corrupt voters issue, there are QUITE a few players in the hall (especially those inducted back in the beginnings of the hall like they were) that do not live up to the majority of today's inductees' standards
also, the perception of the game has changed over the last century and defense has lost some of it's luster...so a great player who is mainly known for his defense (like tinker or evers) might be hailed back in 1909 but today they sound a lot like omar vizquel or jack wilson
and i won't defend them because a poem was written about them, thats as much a product of their sterling D as it is their unique surnames

again, i'm not saying they might not be the best ever but i won't argue for them because once you start trusting people who are also trusting people who trust the people that actually saw tinker & evers it just gets too convoluted...its like the philosiphy of descartes: you have to start by taking absolutely nothing for granted and assuming everything you know is false...then slowly figure out the things you absolutely know are true because YOU know them to be, not because a friend told you they were because ultimately that friend is fallible...and now i'm going to lay down...

by Rob Castellano on Jul 5, 2006 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions

personal favorite

I loved watching U.L Washington/Frank White and Ozzie Smith/Tommy Herr....were they the best, NO....but i loved watching them as a kid

by gashousegang on Jul 5, 2006 10:55 AM EDT reply actions

the chemistry

of Jack Wilson and castillo have is amazing. They are on the same page and practice giving and taking each others crazy DP feeds. its a joy to wathc

by nms on Jul 5, 2006 5:45 PM EDT reply actions

how about

the chemistry that ron belliard and jhonny "H first" peralta must have for belliard to feel confortable enough to make that behind the back toss in yesterday's debacle against the yankees?

by Rob Castellano on Jul 5, 2006 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Great point!

Hello robcast23,

That was a pretty neat play wasn't it? :-) It almost resulted in a DP when it was uncertain whether they would even get one out on that play.

That play reminded me of plays Omar and Robbie used to make; to me, they were one of the most dynamic, if not most dynamic DP combinations in the game of baseball. I seen them live and on TV many times making those great plays.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Take care and have a great day!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Jul 6, 2006 8:30 AM EDT reply actions