Braves' Max Ramirez to Cleveland for Bob Wickman

Max Ramirez = future DH

He's got a great bat, but he's probably just a younger version of Ryan Garko.

by smt on Jul 20, 2006 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Have you seen him?

Is it his footwork, arm, ball-blocking, framing, game-calling?

by cooper7d7 on Jul 20, 2006 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

eh

i like him but i certainly wouldn't call his bat "great"...solid is more accurate. Hes also a little old for his levels. Garko seems like a decent comp.

As for the trade i just dont think Wickman is that good at all. Id really even prefer Rudy Seanez

by nms on Jul 20, 2006 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but i should add

that while i have my quibbles with it, as the other poster pointed out it is ultimately a very fair, reasonable deal.

by nms on Jul 20, 2006 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hmmm

hes only 21 this year,which is somewhat old but not way too old for the SAL. I thought he was 22, which is wierd bc until Feb i had thought he was still 19 or something.....

anyway...hes been injured some this year but BA has an interesting note about his splits (dont worry its free, daily dish content)

"The 21-year-old is suffering from a sprained rotator cuff and if was feared that it might necessitate a DL stint. Rehab; however, has prevented that to this point for the 2005 Rookie-level Appalachian League MVP.
While he may not like being DH, he might want to take a look at his splits. In 134 at-bats as a DH he is hitting .328 with six homers, 24 walks and 40 strikeouts. In 120 at-bats as a catcher, he is hitting .225 with three homers 25 walks and 30 strikeouts."

by nms on Jul 20, 2006 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Krivsky....uggh

An amazing steal for the Braves! Can't believe they just traded an 'A ball' catcher for a instant relief corp help!

That's JS

by themurph on Jul 21, 2006 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like this for both teams

I think the Braves got what looks like a good deal. Ramirez is nice, but not a superstar prospect... and Wickman could/should help the Braves pen. Certainly a reasonable price, compared to what the Reds paid.

by dbimberg on Jul 20, 2006 2:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Closer

So who closes in Cleveland now?

Waiting for Travis Buck

by Furious George on Jul 20, 2006 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Fausto Carmona

His is the name I've heard bandied about.

by drjayphd on Jul 20, 2006 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RE: Closer

Look for Fausto Carmona to be the first reliever to get a shot at closing in Cleveland.

by RandyKutcherHair on Jul 20, 2006 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera the new closer?

He's been shaky this year, but the Indians are obviously throwing in the towel.

by Athletic Supporter on Jul 20, 2006 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

No Cabrera for you!

Cabrera won't be the closer. Word from officials is that he has problems throwing 2 good pitches in a row, consistently.

Carmona has been very good out of the pen and I've heard that Carmona will get the first shot at being a closer.

Overall, I think this trade stinks. I think there were plenty of teams (more than 2, less than 10) that need a closer. I also think that the player we got in return was a veiled way of saying that we just didn't want Wickman's contract. Another Garko? We already have 2 of that in Victor and Garko. Victor won't stay behind the plate, but we need someone that has a shot at making it to the majors and not being Victor all over again! Besides, Garko can't even crack the major league roster with some guy named Hafner already firmly entrenched as DH.

Braves fans should love, yet hate this. Wickman will save near 100% of his opportunities, but will give all fans heart attacks as he'll walk the first guy and give up a hit to the next guy before striking out the side on 8 pitches each.

I'd say this is a steal for Schuerholz. Reliable closer for a class A DH. Lovely.

by lenred on Jul 20, 2006 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Love/hate

lenred,

With the closing clowns the Braves fans have endured the last season and a half, I am sure that watching Wickman will be a lot better to take.

by JFP on Jul 20, 2006 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Where would he rank?

I know very little about Ramirez, just what I've read this afternoon. Where would he rank in the Indians organization? I'm imagining him a class below Marte, Sowers, Miller but a step above Kouzmanoff, Snyder, Gutierrez as a prospect. Is that about right?

by Fundamentals on Jul 20, 2006 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

below

Marte, Lofgren, Sowers, Miller, Kouzmanoff, Crowe, Mujica, at the least, probably A. Cabrera as well.

by gogotabata on Jul 20, 2006 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wickman

Definately overrated, he'll help for sure, but I don't think he'd do a better job than Chris Reitsma would. The move to the NL can't but help his stats at least a little though. As has been said, sounds pretty fair to me. Question is, why didn't the Reds go after him?

Rios is the next Juan Gonzales, thats right, I said it.

by KaoticKlown on Jul 20, 2006 8:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Guess I'm of a different view

I tend to think this was a good value deal for Cleveland. Granted, Max is probably not going to catch, and first might be the only option as a position, but I like Max's bat. Wickman might be better than what the Braves had, but I'm just not a big fan, and I don't think his stuff translates to the NL that well. Dunno, I figure Mark Shapiro can flip him for something else.

by toonsterwu on Jul 20, 2006 11:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My thoughts on the trade!

Hello everyone,

Personally, I don't think it was a bad deal for Cleveland and Shapiro wasn't taken by Schuerholz in my opinion.

For those who haven't seen Wickman, a word of advice: Unless he totally fools NL hitters who haven't seen him on a regular basis, it's best to have a bottle of Tums, Mylanta, Maalox, or whatever your favorite indigestion remedy is because Wickman's innings are usually very adventurous. :-)

He usually wiggles off the hook more often than not, but lately, he hasn't been quite as slippery in getting out of jams (especially around the time the Indians were in Milwaukee about a month ago.)

My main point is, I don't think Wickman is that great of a closer. Compared to the rest of the Atlanta relief corps, he may be an upgrade, but I doubt he's that big of an upgrade.

At the same time, John did rate Max Ramirez the 6th best prospect in the Braves' system, usually considered one of the best in terms of young talent, so it's not like the Brandon Phillips deal where the Indians got another Jeff Stevens (a Minor prospect by most accounts.)

It depends on how Max develops behind the plate, but from what I have heard, he's thrown out 37% or so of the baserunners, which isn't too shabby.

Plus, someone at LetsGoTribe brought up a very good point about the ballparks Max has played in to this point and Lake County's Classic Park. Both Danville and Rome are pitcher's parks by most accounts, yet Max has performed quite well at both places. Lake County is at least a neutral park, if not a hitter's park, so don't be surprised if Max's numbers go up a bit when he starts playing for Lake County.

Plus, I don't think it's bad if he follows in Garko's footsteps (though hopefully, he'll remain a catcher): both Hafner and Garko are either in the Majors or on the verge of the Majors. Ramirez is probably 3-4 years away.

At that time, Hafner will hopefully still be an Indian, but with the market situation as it is and the price Hafner will likely command at that time, it's probably 50/50 he remains as an Indian, sorry to say.

As for Garko, he could be a 1B/DH at that time, which still leaves one spot open (unless Kouzmanoff is also there,) but there are still 3-4 years to sort that out, so I don't think it was a bad trade at all for the Indians, especially if Max continues to develop at his current pace.

Plus, by most accounts, this is Wickman's final year, so keeping him would not have resulted in one or two extra draft picks for next year's draft anyway (presuming the Collective Bargaining Agreement still allows extra picks, which I certainly hope it does, for reasons I have explained in another thread earlier this year,) so it really made a lot of sense for the Indians to trade Wickman, and to get someone with Ramirez's ceiling I think is certainly a fair trade for both sides.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Take care and have a great weekend!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Jul 21, 2006 1:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Only Tums?

"it's best to have a bottle of Tums, Mylanta, Maalox, or whatever your favorite indigestion remedy is because Wickman's innings are usually very adventurous. :-)"

us braves fans are used to having to take mouthfuls of MUCH stronger drugs to stomach our bullpen. Nice to see this is an improvement

by nms on Jul 21, 2006 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's true!

Hello nms,

You're probably right - just don't expect to get off the drugs entirely with Wickman on the mound. :-)

Just my 2 cents.

Take care and have a great weekend!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Jul 21, 2006 1:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

retiring players

usually file for free-agency anyway. So it seems to me, at any rate.

by Vaux on Jul 21, 2006 3:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Shapiro interview

I was watching ESPN last night and heard an interview of Shapiro by Karl Ravech. Shapiro says that there are tons of calls for pitching and that he's getting calls on pitchers they never considered discussing in trades. He said that adding Max was an opportunity to "add a player with a high ceiling to the organization."

I still think that with so many people calling for pitching help, he could've spun Wick into a little more. #6 in the Braves system is pretty decent, but considering that with his salary Wick will only cost the Braves about 2-3 mil, he was affordable to many teams. The Angels, Texas, St Louis and San Fran all seem like teams that could've offered more for Wick and had the need for him.

All that said, I think the bottom line is this was a disappointment trade for Shapiro. I think he targeted Kearns from the Reds, and thought he had put in enough interest to at least get a call before Krivsky sent him to Washington. I heard Shapiro say a few days ago that they had Kearns targeted, calls in to Cincy, and the arms Cincy was looking for to make a good trade match. For whatever reason, Krivsky went another direction and Shapiro was left with a player but no desirable trade partner.

That's just my take.

by lenred on Jul 21, 2006 9:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Shapiro interview

I was watching ESPN last night and heard an interview of Shapiro by Karl Ravech. Shapiro says that there are tons of calls for pitching and that he's getting calls on pitchers they never considered discussing in trades. He said that adding Max was an opportunity to "add a player with a high ceiling to the organization."

I still think that with so many people calling for pitching help, he could've spun Wick into a little more. #6 in the Braves system is pretty decent, but considering that with his salary Wick will only cost the Braves about 2-3 mil, he was affordable to many teams. The Angels, Texas, St Louis and San Fran all seem like teams that could've offered more for Wick and had the need for him.

All that said, I think the bottom line is this was a disappointment trade for Shapiro. I think he targeted Kearns from the Reds, and thought he had put in enough interest to at least get a call before Krivsky sent him to Washington. I heard Shapiro say a few days ago that they had Kearns targeted, calls in to Cincy, and the arms Cincy was looking for to make a good trade match. For whatever reason, Krivsky went another direction and Shapiro was left with a player but no desirable trade partner.

That's just my take.

by lenred on Jul 21, 2006 9:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Sorry

I got an error message and double-posted. I didn't intend to post twice.

by lenred on Jul 21, 2006 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kearns

I think the Reds would have been much better off trading Kearns for Wickman then the group of middle relievers they got.

by RandyKutcherHair on Jul 21, 2006 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re:

Bray/Majewski > Wickman

I don't like the Kearns/Lopez deal from the Reds POV, but multiple years of Bray/Majewski is better than 2 months of Wickman.

"I may not be a class act, but I'm an American." Ron Artest on wanting to play for the Olympic team

by natsfan2005 on Jul 21, 2006 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Further thoughts on the trade!

Hello everyone,

lenred - It's possible this could be a disappointment trade for Shapiro in regards to Kearns, but keep in mind that Wickman is a 10/5 guy who could veto any trade, and from all reports I heard, he wanted to go to a team where he could still close.

That stipulation severely limited the teams that Shapiro could trade him to. Virtually every team you mentioned was knocked off that list:

Cincinnati (Guardado)
Angels (K-Rod)
Texas (Otsuka)
St. Louis (Isringhausen)
San Francisco (Benitez)

So, as you can see, none of those teams were really options.

From what I've heard, Shapiro said that he did have other teams interested in Wickman and offering AA and AAA prospects, but with lower ceilings than Max Ramirez, so I really don't think Shapiro was taken by Schuerholz - as most have said, it seems like a fair trade.

Plus, like I said, Wickman is not an "automatic" closer by any means - he somehows manages to close it out more often than not, but his saves are anything but routine 95-99% of the time. Being that he is likely to retire after this season, getting a guy with Ramirez's ceiling, only being 21, and having performed pretty well in pitcher's parks no less, I don't think you can say Shapiro was taken by Schuerholz.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Take care and have a great weekend!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Jul 21, 2006 7:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wickman

To support this even further, I saw a quote from Wickman where he confirmed that in fact he had "vetoed other deals" before agreeing to go to Atlanta. So Shapiro may have done the best he could (Max Ramirez isn't exactly chopped liver).

I think you have to give credit to both GMs on this one. Shapiro got good value for a so-so closer that he was dealing into a tight market (once you consider that Wickman could and apparently did veto other trades). But you also have to give Schuerholz credit for going out and bolstering his bullpen, which everyone knew he was desperate to fix, and doing so only at the cost of single-A guy who was potentially blocked by McCann, Salty, or Campbell, depending on whether you think he fit at C or 3B.

Ultimately, I think Schuerholz did what he always does--he didn't overreact to the situation, bided his time, and put himself into a position where he could make a good deal. And Shapiro did what he always does, get good value for an aging veteran that he's selling to a contender.

For Indiansfan and others, I'd love to see Shapiro on the other side of that coin someday--let's see how he does when he's the one adding that last piece for a pennant run!

by Yakker on Jul 21, 2006 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with that!

Hello Uncle Charlie,

I agree with you on your analysis and on your last sentence - I'd definitely love to see Shapiro in that situation one day in the near future - may he do well when he and the Indians get that opportunity! :-)

Take care and have a great weekend!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Jul 21, 2006 11:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs