CIN trades Kearns/F. Lopez to WAS for not much
by Mean Dean on Jul 13, 2006 3:54 PM EDT
127 comments
Just reported on WFAN, can't find a link yet.
Washington is sending back flotsam and jetsam: Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, Royce Clayton, and Brendan Harris, if I heard it correctly.
Definitely sounded like a steal for Washington.
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Steal?
There is NO way to justify this deal for the Reds. NONE.
by silvysilv on Jul 13, 2006 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
full trade
by Maverick on Jul 13, 2006 3:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Wagner's moving
I guess the Cincy crew got a bit full of themselves with the Arroyo swap & the Brandan Phillips pickup. Agreed: there is no way to justify this trade for the Reds. Although, does this mean Denorfia gets regular at bats?
by Azteca on Jul 13, 2006 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Terrible
by Athletic Supporter on Jul 13, 2006 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
bad
by John Sickels on Jul 13, 2006 3:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
do you have to have XM to recieve your broadcast
by yanksfan6129 on Jul 13, 2006 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, and John...
by yanksfan6129 on Jul 13, 2006 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
by natsfan2005 on Jul 13, 2006 4:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently Kearns videotaped it.
by design28 on Jul 13, 2006 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reds
And what fantasy league is Krivisky in? I want to join and make trades with him.
by elephunkadelic on Jul 13, 2006 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Narron had his druthers
by drjayphd on Jul 13, 2006 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you forgot
by the pinstripes on Jul 13, 2006 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about...
by calig23 on Jul 13, 2006 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Freel's just not an everyday player.
by design28 on Jul 13, 2006 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHA!!!
This is the worst trade I can even think of over the past 10 years that wasn't a salary dump.
by bigfatdrunk on Jul 13, 2006 4:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This just hurts.
I'm gonna be sick. There just aren't words.
Freel to 2B, Phillips to SS, Denorfia up from AAA?
by design28 on Jul 13, 2006 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sounds a bit like Giles/Rincon!
I can feel your pain; recall John Hart's trade of Brian Giles to Pittsburgh for lefty reliever Ricardo Rincon. That didn't work out too well for us, sorry to say.
However, though Giles was a good bat that got better, that was just 1-for-1; Krivsky goes ahead and trades 3-for-5, all three of which looked to be vital cogs for your future, even though Wagner has struggled more than expected.
Sorry, Cincinnati fans; hopefully, the trade works out for you, but on paper, it doesn't look too good.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
Take care and try to have a good weekend!
by indiansfan on Jul 14, 2006 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man oh man
Maybe they'll move Aurilia to SS and give Edwin the everyday job?
by UCFKnights on Jul 13, 2006 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Krivsky must have really wanted to get Freel into the lineup everyday. But trading one of your middle of the order bats and a table setter and getting no immediate impact players back in return is horrible.
The good news is that hopefully Ryan Wagner will get another shot, and can turn things around pitching in RFK.
by samjjones on Jul 13, 2006 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Krivsky has robbed me of the phrase ...
by design28 on Jul 13, 2006 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re
by albo4lyfe on Jul 13, 2006 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LMAOOOOOOOO
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
This tops Kazmir for Zambrano.
by youALREADYknow on Jul 13, 2006 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I never thought I'd say it...
by MontrealMets on Jul 13, 2006 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kearns/Lopez
you've got a RF (who can play a decent CF by the way) who has good discipline, can hit 30 HR and drive in 100 RBI.
both are 26 and not due for a big payday anytime soon.
again: WTF?
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely False
Kearns is not that great a defender. He's lost a step. He apparently doesn't have a good work ethic. The only thing he's got going for him is his cannon of an arm. he has a HUGE hole in his swing - watch him play. I have, for the last 5+ years.
Kearns is making 3.5 mil this year, Lopez about 4.
Take into account Lopez is a Boras Client. Take into account that both next year would cost about oh..10-12 million due to raises..
A SS who plays terrible D, and who OPSing sub .750 is not worth 6 a year. Kearns could hit the DL at any. freaking. time.
On paper, it looks very, very, bad. But if you really dig deep into it.. I'm actually kind of happy with it. It addresses current concerns, it means the Reds are trying to win NOW. They improve their HORRID bullpen(3rd worst in the league), they by default improve their D on the infield - they dont miss a beat with Denorfia vs. Kearns - and they now have about 12 million in the offseason they can go spend on much needed pitching.
The bottom line is this - the offense in Cincy has been plentiful for years, but the pitching dreadful. This helps the bullpen, and you don't lose much on the offensive side of the hill. Phillips was a SS coming up. If he slides over and Freel gets the majority of starts at 2b.. I'll be a happy effin camper. especially if we remain in this thing - which we are(leading the wildcard). Usually Reds fans pack it in by the start of June. Its almost August, and we're leading the WC.
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright
You still don't make a decent argument for trading them both for Majewski, Bray, Clayton, and change.
by limozeen on Jul 15, 2006 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
They might very well have gotten a better return elsewhere had they waited..
But on that token, they might very well have fallen off the pace to contend had they waited too...
I still have mixed feelings about this deal for sure, but I understand the rational behind it.
by cincyinco on Jul 16, 2006 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
And FLop is a very good shortstop in his own right. Learned how to take a walk with the best of them, and he's got a nice homer total for a middle infielder and great speed/baserunning instincts as well. Those are two young building-block type players at age 26.
Meanwhile, Majewski is a lucky-ass reliever who strikes out no one, Bray hasn't shown he can K guys at the MLB level, and Clayton and Harris are roster fillers.
What the hell is going on here?
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I can think...
I'm still skeptical.
by OneHitWonder on Jul 13, 2006 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
work out well
This trade was completely idiotic.
The Reds could have promoted some guys from their AAA pitching staff to do as good a job as Majewski and Bray.
by youALREADYknow on Jul 13, 2006 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because there is no way bad trades can work out
I'm not saying this will work out (I lean towards it not) but you can't discout it right off the bat.
by OneHitWonder on Jul 13, 2006 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
salary dump
This wasn't even a salary dump... these are underpaid guys entering their prime who are having career seasons.
Amazing that such a deal could even be conceivable.
by youALREADYknow on Jul 13, 2006 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please tell me
Why 265/356/394 is worth the 6 million+ that Scott Boras will be asking for in arbitration next year? 2005 is quite possibly an abberation.
Salary dump aside, this does give Krivsky TONS of payroll flexability going into next year, to really put his OWN stamp on this team.
Bowden and O'Brien parts that were in and not working, are now out...
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not working?
Kearns was worth 6.8 wins over a replacement rightfielder.
Both are 26 with room to improve. Both aren't making bank-breaking money.
Your logic makes no sense.
by limozeen on Jul 15, 2006 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My logic?
Since when is shelling out 6+ million to a SS who's OPSing sub .750 logical?
This is how Cincy got in a mess under Bowden and Obrien. Locked up a majority of payroll on players who weren't worth their contracts(see casey, milton, larkin, etc) and then they couldn't move them for anything. They handcuffed themselves.
VORP, Winshares, blah blah blah. Have you WATCHED these guys play everyday over the last 3-5 years? I have. Kearns was my favorite player on the Reds, and as much as I like him, he's got some major holes in his game - and he seemingly is unwilling to make the adjustments to fix them. Lopez almost had me believing that last year was what he was going to do year in and year out, but this year gave me major doubts. Watch him play - he can't hit from the right side of the plate, and sometimes he just seems like he's flailing and lost at the plate this year.
Both are 26, with room to improve. The question is will they? Its apparent to me, after watching these guys day in and day out for the last several years, that this is quite possibly as good as it gets. And if thats the case, these guys really aren't so special. Good players yes.. special talents? no.
by cincyinco on Jul 16, 2006 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lee for Pods WAS bad
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's a bad trade
by the pinstripes on Jul 13, 2006 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Rotoworld is reporting that the Reds offered Kearns up for Scott Linebrink straight up.. 1 for 1. Guess who got turned down?
The market for Kearns and Lopez just isn't as good as you'd think. Kearns has NO track record.. just potential. And Lopez is having a terrible year and 2005 might have been his best.
Sell high. Both Kearn's and Lopez's values may never be higher than they are/were at the time of the trade.
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait?
and now their value has "never been higher"
you are quickly losing me.
by limozeen on Jul 15, 2006 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How am I losing you?
Yes, their value has probably never been higher.
Buy low, sell high. Kearns value was NILL before the start of the season - he had been injured for the past 3 years or so, demoted to AAA for being out of shape - and really had proven NOTIHNG since he debuted in the league before getting hurt.
Lopez has seriously regressed.
So rather than wait and see if
A) Kearns can sustain his level of production
B) Lopez can regain his 2005 form
Krivsky sold both while their perceived values were "high".
I dont know whats so hard to understand about this.
When was the last time the Reds made the playoffs?
1995. Its been 11 years. The last 6 to 7 with a great offense, but absolutely no pitching. Its gotten us jack sheyit for the Reds, except for time on the greens when there are still teams playing in october. The current formula WAS NOT WORKING. Lopez and Kearns were about to get real expensive, and were/are not seen as core parts to the team.
Krivsky dealt from a position of strength(OF depth) and also dealt out a terrible(quite possibly the worst in the league) defensive shortstop.
It seems to me you're putting way too much value into these two guys. They're good, they both have strengths. But they both also have glaring holes in their game. They're not the superstars you're making them out to be - nor are they going to have enough value to fetch a soriano or an ace pitcher - especially when the price of pitching is so steep.
Look at the market. Its changed. Pitching is the name of the game. If you have it, you're rich(ChiSox).. if you don't, you're poor(Royals). And with so many teams contending, who's going to give up a big name pitcher at this point in time? No one.
by cincyinco on Jul 16, 2006 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pods
by MontrealMets on Jul 13, 2006 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Been there
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the thing is
In some way, this must represent how the Reds plan to make a run for the playoffs this year. But it's very short-sighted.
by Azteca on Jul 13, 2006 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Krivsky
Not defending what I think is a pretty bad trade from the Reds side, but trying to understand it. (If he starts Royce Clayton more than once a week I take all this back.)
by Yakker on Jul 13, 2006 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the goal
by C on Jul 13, 2006 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching and defense
by Yakker on Jul 13, 2006 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very True
And really, thats the only thing Cincy has ever really had, offense. Denorfia has good range and a very good arm. He also has a bit of stick in him. Phillips can handle short stop. He may not get there this year, but next year I bet he's the starting guy there. May even force the hand sooner if Freel comes back and can play 2b.
EE at 3b. Phillips at SS. Freel at 2b. Rich Aurillia and Hatteberg platooning 1st. Dunn, Griff, Deno in the outfield.
Not bad if you ask me. Add in Bray, Maj, Eddy, Coffey, and all the sudden the bullpen looks a ton more respectable than the asshats we were throwin out there...
By my count the Reds have lost at least 10-15 games this year due to the pen blowing up. The losses rest squarley on their shoulders. If the pen can keep us in games, we can keep ourselves in contention.
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
x
Bray: 3.98 DIPS (155th best)
Majewski: 4.31 DIPS (229th best)
there's nothing like overpaying for mediocrity...
by limozeen on Jul 15, 2006 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
Have you even WATCHED the reds this year?
Do you even know the state their bullpen was in?
Do you know how many games I've seen lost, simply because there was absolutely NO option in the pen to go to? I can safely say I can rest 10-15 losses squarely on the bullpens shoulders.
Yes, the price was high... but if you're going to call Bray and Maj mediocre - what are you calling Lopez and Kearns?
Lopez has regressed big time, and he's one of the worst defensive SS in the league. Kearns range isn't the best - his speed isn't either. But he is a good outfielder. He makes up for his lack of speed by getting good jumps and taking good routes on plays. But the ones that get past him.. man, he's slow to get there. His arm is good, but inaccurate. He has a MAJOR hitch in his swing. I provided links showing his hit chart - did you view that? You can quite a bit of his outs are made to the left side - he is like Sean Casey.. when he's not "on" he grounds out weakly to his pull side.
I haven't even really spoken about some of the intangable reasons for making the deal either..
Look, dislike the trade all you want - but don't make it out to be like Kearns and Lopez are budding superstars. They're just good ball players.
by cincyinco on Jul 16, 2006 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it April 1st in some alternate dimension where
by daveh33 on Jul 13, 2006 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I keep hoping that I missed a name in the deal ..
by design28 on Jul 13, 2006 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor design28
Oh, wait, I'm an Astros fan. I can cheer you up!
Joe Morgan, Denis Menke, Jack Billingham and Cesar Geronimo for Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jimmy Stewart.
Does that help? Just a bit?
by bigfatdrunk on Jul 13, 2006 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly it doesn't help ...
by design28 on Jul 13, 2006 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to think
give this trade some time. If the reds make the playoffs, everyone says this is a great trade.
Everyone said the MWP for Arroyo deal was bad for the Reds. I'd say the Reds have won that one pretty squarely. Krivsky is a good judge in talent(Arroyo, Phillips, Ross... DFAing White, Hammond, Womack, etc).. I am gonna reserve judgement on this one.
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hate to pile on ......
by the pinstripes on Jul 13, 2006 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For God's sake
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Insanity!?!?!?!?
Two quality young starters for a bunch of spare parts. Majewski and Bray aren't even likely to help much once they transfer from RFK to Cincy.
For that price, they should have gotten back Cordero and Vidro or something.
by BaseballBrain on Jul 13, 2006 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WOW
by AucklandGM on Jul 13, 2006 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i bet...
by natsfan2005 on Jul 13, 2006 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
funny
by Azteca on Jul 13, 2006 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got one better ....
by the pinstripes on Jul 13, 2006 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
by OneHitWonder on Jul 13, 2006 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Krivsky OK?
Wait, let him finish this call with Terry Ryan first...
by BaseballBrain on Jul 13, 2006 4:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
bray and maj
For Kearns and Flop you could acquire some legit arms, these guys are average middle relief guys that most teams can probably produce from the minors. This is a joke.
AND giving up wagner is even more hilarious, he could turn out to be better than anyone they got in return from the nats.
My question is does this allow Brandon Harris any playing time in the future? I've always liked his bat.
by Team Moneyball on Jul 13, 2006 4:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna be honest...
by MontrealMets on Jul 13, 2006 4:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
still don't buy it
by wily mo on Jul 13, 2006 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll defend it.. Sort of.
Kearns was a solid 4th OF but in my mind should not have been starting. (freel, dunn, griffey)
SS some lost offense but realy not much and statistically improved defensivelly.
Biggest challenge was Bullpen and that is improved.
I can see Krivsky's logic. (also some cost savings I believe and maybe another trade is coming.
by novaoakland on Jul 13, 2006 4:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
wait a second
I'm an angels fan and I would have dealt shields and tons of change for those two guys. WTF were the reds thinking? Now I'm more pissed that stoneman didn't intercept their communications and jump in to up the ante.
by Team Moneyball on Jul 13, 2006 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
amazing
Maybe you should apply for the Reds GM job once Krivsky is fired for making trades like these.
by youALREADYknow on Jul 13, 2006 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In quick defense
by Brickhaus on Jul 13, 2006 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First....
I cant picture the conversation between GM's:
"Well I dont know if Kearns and Lopez is quite enough, why dont you toss in Wagner just to keep our pen from losing too much. I like his upside."
"Sure, anything else I can do for you while Im bent over like this?"
"Well I did just buy a spikey metal rod...."
"Woot!"
by grozzy on Jul 13, 2006 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No... as a matter of fact
Krivsky: O.K. (clears throat) I give you Kearns, Lopez and (clears throat) who? Wagner?
Bowden: Right. You get 5 guys from my special trade lottery. You'll be my first and I assure you Zimmerman and Cordero are in there. Trust me.
Krivsky: Well, o.k. let's play. I trust you. My momma always taught me to believe in people. You seem like a nice fella. Spin that sucker. Yehaw!!!
Bowden: Well, I got some good news and some bad news. Which do you want first.
Krivsky: Give me the good news.
Bowden: Well, the good news is we just got Felipe Lopez and Austin Kearns.
Krivsky: Ahuh!
Bowden: The bad news is you got nobody. You dizzy bastard! I told my bosses this would work you dumn f#$%!
by the pinstripes on Jul 13, 2006 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hot first half
.267 .358 .468
These are not stats of starting RF for a playoff team.
by novaoakland on Jul 13, 2006 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
career numbers?
You're acting like he's a 32 year old journeyman.
He hasn't even received consistent AB's for a couple of seasons and his bat has been on fire since late last year in AAA.
by youALREADYknow on Jul 13, 2006 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats because
Kearns is one of my favorite players guys, but lets get real. He's not been the same since his rookie year, then got hurt.
he has a HUGE hole in his swing. Watch the guy play sometime. He's got fast enough hands to make up for it sometimes - but watch a lot of his hits.. 3b.. SS.. 3b.. SS.. 3b..
Look at his groundouts. The guy will not make any adjustments.
Lopez, is OPSing a whopping .749.. whoop.. dee.. doo.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6415
These guys are not near as good as you're all making them out to be, and I'm a die hard reds fan. I wish other GMs thought as highly of these guys as you all seem to.. becuase they really dont have the value you'd expect. They are going to get real expensive real quick - and they dont exactly have an established track record of success due to injury or just plain suckitude.
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A tick above average?
by design28 on Jul 13, 2006 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
above average
by novaoakland on Jul 13, 2006 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better way to look at it
by BaseballBrain on Jul 13, 2006 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kearns could be a CF for a lot of teams
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Denorfia
by Green Lantern on Jul 13, 2006 4:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
his power's limited
by Azteca on Jul 13, 2006 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOW
As a Jays fan I would have given up Justin Speier and anyone else in the BP to get Kearns and FLOP
by bunner19 on Jul 13, 2006 4:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What about...
by brudaimonia on Jul 13, 2006 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
guys guys, its all good
"To whom it may concern,
Whoops. My bad. At least we had 1990 right?
Love,
No Lube Krivsky"
by Team Moneyball on Jul 13, 2006 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
bowden
by z4 landshark on Jul 13, 2006 6:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not fair...
To get Keans AND Lopez in the same deal for...crap basically? This is the first and only time I can ever remember complimenting Jim Bowden, but that is a fu*kin steal.
This is the kind of deal the Cubs should be doing. Going after guys like Keans, Wilson Betemit of the Braves, Ryan Church of the Nationals, and other young, significantly talented guys their orginization seems to ignore. We would be 10x better, more exciting, cheaper, more fun...
This kind of trade makes me jealous of smarter franchises. The sad thing is Bowden is an idiot, a big one at that, and he's pulling deals like that. WTF is Hendry doing? Getting us guys like Neifi to play everyday, filling the roster with no power, no walk, barely glove players? Is it really that hard to ask for a GM better than Jim friggin Bowden? Are we really that inept of a franchise?
I lose more and more hope everyday. The only thing I could see making me smile this season is to see Prior come back fully healthy and dominate.
Knowing I'm a Cubs fan, the big guy upstairs won't let that happen.
by SenorGato88 on Jul 13, 2006 6:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Joke
by KaoticKlown on Jul 13, 2006 6:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Where does AK play?
by cooper7d7 on Jul 13, 2006 6:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would think so
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Jose more than I like
I'm thinking this OF could be brutal:
Kearns
Soriano Guillen
Strong arms in Center and Right, but I'm wondering about those ranges?
by cooper7d7 on Jul 13, 2006 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know much about Kearns's range
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stand corrected
I kinda feel TR got robbed now, all he got for Castro was a decent A+ OF?
by cooper7d7 on Jul 13, 2006 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF?
I like Majewski and Bray, but they're not exactly special. The Nationals unload Clayton and Harris, as well?
Does this move make sense from any standpoint (positional need, money unloading, Bill Bray being Superman in disguise)?
by sasquatch83 on Jul 13, 2006 7:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Overestimating Kearns/Lopez
In other words, Kvisky traded away two future journeymen players who have more value in roto leagues than they do on a major league ballclub with playoff hopes.
by TT on Jul 13, 2006 9:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This isn't a bad premise
You can't go around calling Kearns "not a core player" when he's 26 and enjoying his first true breakout as an MLB player. He's got development left, plus he's an excellent defensive RF and passable if not good in CF.
Yeah, Lopez has a bad glove, but he's still a better tradeable asset than a throw-in for a couple of shaky MRs. He's a guy with an elite walk rate, good power for a middle infielder, and tremendous speed and baserunning instincts. Trading Kearns and Lopez for bullpen help isn't what's in question here...the consensus is that the trade should have yielded a lot more than it did.
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMFG this is so damn funny
We aren't underestimating the value of quality relievers, you're just making one of your patented strawmen so that you can say we are. The problem with that argument is that it works on the assumption that Bray and Majewski are quality relievers. I'm sorry, but a rookie who has yet to put it all together at the major league level and a 26 year old who has a career WHIP of 1.38 with only 96 K in 162.1 IP just don't scream top flight reliever to me. You also have to adjust from one of the best pitchers parks in the league to one of the worst, and they aren't looking too much like great relievers anymore.
Calling Kearns and Lopez journeymen is just the funniest damn thing that I have ever seen. Lopez was the best shortstop in the NL last year, defense or no. What's also being overlooked is the fact that he is now being replaced by Royce Clayton, who is in every way Lopez's inferior, and has never broken an .800 OPS EVER. Limozeen did a damn good job of explaining why Lopez is way better than Clayton can hope to be. Kearns is having a breakout season and has been on a tear for well over a year between AAA/NL. They are both 26. 26.
Putting aside the fact that Kearns instantly becomes a great player at his new position in the context of center fielders, if players like Kearns are so "easy to find," name 4 more corner outfielders easily available out there who could hit .274/.351/.492 while hitting around 30 HR a season and would cost $1.85 million a year or less. Esentially you're saying it is easier to find an outfielder who can OPS over .800 than it is to find a middle reliever who can put up an ERA of about 3.00+? Quite frankly, I find that laughable. Maybe you should call up Brian Cashman, Tim Purpura, Bill Stoneman, Bill Bavasi, Jim Hendry, Larry Beinfest, Dave Littlefield, and Walt Jocketty, because they'd sure appreciate a call from the "generic cheap quality outfielder" dealer.
by AucklandGM on Jul 13, 2006 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One wonders
You think Kvisky doesn't have their phone number? Do you suppose they couldn't find Kvisky's number or didn't notice Kearns might be available? It may be both Kearns and Lopez will get better, then again its possible that the Reds who get to see them play everyday and decided they won't.
Kearns average went form .290, to .275 to .258 over the first three months of the season and his other numbers dropped in a similar fashion. Does that look like a guy who is improving? And he still strikes out at an alarming rate. So you can call it a breakout, or maybe it was just a hot start that is slowly cooling off.
You also have to adjust from one of the best pitchers parks in the league to one of the worst
And what is that going to do for Kearns and Lopez numbers? It works both ways. And I doubt Kvisky is evaluating players based on their stats alone.
by TT on Jul 13, 2006 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whats being missed completely
Kearns stock has never been higher(even tho his numbers have dipped each and every month up to the break).. and supposing he keeps up the level of play, is due a BIG pay day in arbitration.
Lopez is a Boras client. Expect Boras to seek 6mil+ in arbitration for a player putting up a sub .750 OPS..
I'm a reds fan and even [b]I'M[/b] not this much of a homer.
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Overestimating Kearns/Lopez
"And Kearns is not a core player on a championship team. He is the kind of corner outfielder who is pretty easy to find."
_____________
You think you can just pluck a RF off the streets who is on pace for 30 HR's & 100 RBI's??
I suppose you also think Castro can easily replace Lopez? lol!
Kearns might not be a "core player" but he is very solid...as is Lopez. What makes you think that Majewski or Bray are "core players"? They are just a couple of decent middle relief guys. Majewski has been traded three times & been selected in the Rule V draft (& returned) so he isn't exactly a big time RP.
The Reds are in a jam with their bullpen but they paid a big price for a couple of journeyman MR pitches.
by golfboy10 on Jul 13, 2006 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hot Starts
Kearns has never had 30 HR's or 100 RBI's and he won't reach those totals this year either unless he goes back to hitting like he did in April. Which is why I think people are overestimating Kearns value.
Lopez isn't really a shortstop and as a third basemen a .268 average and a SLG under .400 isn't going to cut it. Can he play second?
My guess is Kvisky looked at these two guys and decided they aren't getting any better.
by TT on Jul 14, 2006 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
couldn't agree more
Lopez more than likely is regressing to his mean this year, after playing above his head last year. Look at Lopez's 2nd half last year, its way more in line with his numbers THIS year. .350 OBP, .400-.450 slugging. Add in his terrible Defense and well.. I dont see whats so special.
Kearns has the potential to be special, but thats just it.. potential. He's never done it over a full year, he's injury plagued, apprently not well liked in the clubhouse except by his buddy Dunn - has a bad work ethic.. Krivsky may have very well sold him while his value was as high as it will ever get.
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brendan Harris
by StickRat on Jul 13, 2006 10:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Reds are 1-0 post trade
by novaoakland on Jul 13, 2006 10:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And see why they almost lost
by novaoakland on Jul 13, 2006 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, brilliant analysis
by Mean Dean on Jul 13, 2006 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TT?!?
by limozeen on Jul 13, 2006 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I would not
The REds Bullpen is in shambles and needs help.
To get pitching you usually have to over pay.
by novaoakland on Jul 13, 2006 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
overpay?
by youALREADYknow on Jul 13, 2006 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff Weaver
That deal was about money nothing more.
by novaoakland on Jul 13, 2006 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
look at corner outfielders teams are playin
stl: jnyman, no name
chw: jnyman, no name
hous: jynman, and no name
etc, etc, etc, heck the only thing kansas city got is big league cos cuz that's bout the norm
Kearns is a frikin STUD.
and Lopez... DAEERRN
does this guy have a clue as to why he WAS winning?
by dryice on Jul 13, 2006 11:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sure
COuld he have gotten more yes!!!!!!!
by novaoakland on Jul 14, 2006 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
still winning w/ lousy bullpen
the owner, who must have at least a passing knowledge, which is all that's required to evaluate this...
should up and can his ars. now. no yesterday
by dryice on Jul 14, 2006 12:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re
by albo4lyfe on Jul 14, 2006 1:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else read this?
After this heist, I have a feeling DC is going to fall into the DRO troubles: asking for stars in exchange for a middle relief. Unbelievable. Also, I heard Krivsky on the radio this morn, and he sounded like almost apologetic.
by Azteca on Jul 14, 2006 9:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think people have lost sight of the fact
Yes, the Reds improved their bullpen, but I can never really justify adding a player like Clayton. It's like the Dodgers trading for Baez and...Lance Carter? WTF! Why him? This is the same kind of thing for me. Clayton - he of the .269/.315/.348 line - is never an asset. This deal is not as bad as people think, but despite the added defense, this part of it is the worst for me.
I have thought for a while that Denorfia should get a shot, and while I did not think this would be his ticket to MLB, the Reds do have a replacement for Kearns. He may not be as good, but he is adequate and I don't think that Kearns will be missed nearly as much as FLOP. Clayton's .829 ZR is still in the bottom half of MLB shortstops (FLOP is dead last with .785). I just think the lack of offense there will end up hurting them.
by count sutton on Jul 14, 2006 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
lack of offense?
Lopez is not having a good year at the plate, he can't hit as a righty worth a damn, and he sucks defensively. He is vastly overrated IMO.
Kearns may hurt a bit, but he has a huge hitch in his swing, his numbers have steadily declined, and his D is also overrated. A combination of Denorfia/Freel can easily replace the offense lost by Kearns and Felo.
The bullpen and D are improved.
You dont have to pay these 2 potentially 10-12 million in arbitration next year. let jimbo deal with that problem. is a SS who OPSing at .750(in line with career) worth 5-6 million a year? Especially one who plays shit defense? I dont think so. Kearns is due for a big payday if he keeps it up. Krivs now has that flexability to fill holes in the rotation during the offseason.
by cincyinco on Jul 15, 2006 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a Reds fan (or A's fan)...
There is nothing new to add here. Kearns' health issues, FLop's defensive issues, and Wagner's issues with being a bust simply lowered their value in the eyes of CIN. I think most of us see Phillips moving to SS and possibly opening a hole at 2B for Bergolla or Harris. Thanks to cable television, I can honestly say that Freel and/or Harris at 2B with Phillips at SS is a defensive upgrade. I don't think you can complain about Denofria/Freel in RF; they are as competent defensively as a healthy Kearns has ever been. This trade also gives Edwin Encarnacion a chance to establish himself as the Red 6-hitter. I just don't see anything wrong with a lineup of
1 - Denofria/Freel - RF
2 - Phillips - SS
3 - Griffey - CF
4 - Aurilia/Hatteberg - 1B
5 - Dunn - LF
6 - Encarnacion - 3B
7 - LaRue/Ross - C
8 - Harris/Freel - 2B
Stability in the Cinci bully should compensate for a slight drop in run support.
I guess my point is that I just can't criticize the Reds management for this deal. They traded an area of depth (specifically OF) for an area of need. If you want to make an argument that FLop for Harris/Clayton was "crap," you might get me to agree with that. Still, the deal as a package is not "the worst trade ever," no matter how you spin it. It is just a matter that some of us like/value Roto-Kearns and Roto-FLop more than others.
It's just one guy's opinion, but I think Bill Bray could end up as a closer someday (ala BJ Ryan).
Those are my ramblings for a Friday morning.
(Bill Bray worships @ Church of Latter Day Lefties)
by QuixoticQuasiQuandary on Jul 14, 2006 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
can see it ...
"caw mah GENURS afma mah lars urn"
"dern Krivsky.. you ARE one hard ars...but PLEASE dont ask for Royce Clayton"
by dryice on Jul 14, 2006 6:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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