Developing Plate Discipline

by RJB7 on Jun 8, 2006 1:19 AM EDT Comment 23 comments

I believe that hitters can develop plate discipline, patience or pitch selection. Some hitters seem to develop this more easily than others and some hitters seem to be blessed to start further along the curve than most.

This question is addressed to John and all others that are knowlegable on this topic:

What/How would you go about instructing a hitter to develop his plate discipline?

a) What swing mechanics are key here?
I feel that good balance over the back leg is very important. I also think being loaded by/at the moment the pitcher is about to release the ball is important. I feel that these things allow the hitter to see the pitch longer, which gives him a better chance to decide if the pitch is a ball or strike, inside or outside, type, and speed of pitch.

b) What mental gameplans are we looking at?
I feel that knowing the external situation of the game: tendencies of the pitcher, pitches the pitcher is throwing for strikes today, score, runners on base, etc. is important because it will help a batter know what pitch will likely by thrown and its location.
I learned to anticipate every pitch being a perfect pitch to hit until I decided it was not, which really helped me be ready for every pitch.

c) What physical drills can be used to help develop plate discipline?
I feel that tracking pitches while guys throw bullpens helps a lot because it helps develop where and when to "see" the ball at its release point.
I feel that the "tennis ball machines" with colored numbers on them are very helpful to develop pitch recognition.

Thanks.

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I think you are off to a good start

But to me it boils down to two things: pitch recognition and shortening a swing.

Being able to recognize a pitch is very important to being a good hitter. The best hitters can recognize what pitch is being thrown almost immediately. The only real way to learn this, in my opinion, is to throw an outrageous number of pitches to a hitter (preferably from a good pitcher who can actually get movement on the pitches). I do think that knowing the situation is important but I think that trying to anticipate what pitch is coming is a crutch, and can often be counterproductive. The best pitchers pride themselves on being spontaneous. Thus, thinking a certain pitch is coming (esp when down 0-2 or 1-2) doesn't help. Hitting is about recognition and reaction, not anticipation.
One other suggestion I have to learning pitch recognition is to become an umpire of some advanced age baseball. I ump some high school games and I have to recognize the pitches just like the hitters do. It is amazing what seeing 150-200 pitches from behind the plate can do to develop pitch recognition.

Secondly, a hitter has to know how to shorten his swing. By this, of course, I mean he has to get his hands into a hitting position quickly. This allows the batter a maximum amount of time in order to decide whether or not to swing. For some hitters, this may mean reluctantly reducing their amount of power. But, I would argue that many hitters probably could shorten their swing without sacrificing much power. After all, Pujol's swing is short, compact, and powerful. Obviously, there are numerous ways to shorten a swing but here are few suggestions: eliminate any stride, keep the hands near the back shoulder, avoid holding the bat over the shoulder (in other words keep it somewhat straight up), choking up, stand close to the plate, avoid unnecesary movements (bat waving, etc.), do not "overload" as the pitch comes, do not try to pull every pitch, and keep the bat as flat as possible through the hitting zone (avoid uppercuts).

One other thing, do not discount the importance of fouling off pitches. Many of the best hitters can foul off pitches that suprise them until they get one that they can handle. And, in the end, a pitch not in the strike zone that is fouled off is better than one taken that is in the strike zone.

That's my amateur opinion anyway...

by Dfarth on Jun 8, 2006 2:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I agree with your comment that a hitter cannot always anticipate a pitch based on the situation because otherwise he would be fooled by better pitching.
I think it is important to know the situation because subconcisouly when you stand in the batter's box, it should help you recognize the pitch more quickly.

by RJB7 on Jun 8, 2006 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not

a big believer here. It can be improved moderately, but I think this is usually a case of either you have it or you don't. Some guys can overcome high K totals because they walk - Adam Dunn being the best example.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jun 8, 2006 7:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ability v. skil

Pitch recognition isn't a physical ability, it's more of a cognitive skill and is something which can be developed. You may not have the physical ability to take advantage of the refinement of your pitch recognition, but the cognitive skill is there.

God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Jun 8, 2006 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This just seems

to be an area among hitters that you never really see a guy that strikes out a ton and never walks improve. Adjusting a stance or a swing is one thing, having good pitch recognition / good reactions at the plate is another. I've talked to hitting instructors/coaches and have read quite a bit about this subject. Most seem to agree with the "you have it or you don't" position. There are always exceptions of course, but generally speaking this is a skill that is less attainable than most others.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jun 8, 2006 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

can we see some numbers?

Who DOESN'T walk more as they get older? Virtually everyone does. Often very old guys are walking the most of all. I don't think Ks normally go down, but it seems really obvious to me that walks do go up. I'd be shocked if the statistical evidence were to the contrary. But your or my subjective impressions aside, it'd easily be solved with some numbers.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Jun 8, 2006 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who doesn't walk more?

guys that don't pan out, that's who. You can't draw more walks/K less as you get older if you are no longer in the game because you weren't good enough to stick around. Look at guys that A.) never made it to the show and B.) guys that didn't stick around to long, such as a Ben Grieve type. I agree, most players should walk more as they age. Doesn't mean they will strike out less or draw walks at an acceptable rate either. Don't have a lot of tim to crunch numbers on this, nor do I really feel like it for this. My assertions were derived more from the traditional scouting side of things, rather than the statistical.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jun 8, 2006 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Players can and do improve

"an area among hitters that you never really see a guy that strikes out a ton and never walks improve."

Elijah Dukes' strikeout-to-walk ratio...

2003 SAL 2.9
2004 SAL 2.6
2004 CAL 1.9
2005 SOU 1.8
2006 ITL 1.3

It happens. It takes work, though, and most players don't demonstrate this kind of improvement.

by FI on Jun 8, 2006 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok

While this may be, I don't think that teams would draft so many "tools" players with the thought of developing them as baseball players without having some insight on how to help them develop this skill. I agree with you that the ones that don't make it have not been able to make that adjustment. I am trying to find out what makes or allows a hitter to be successful in this area.

For example, Barry Bonds talks about a drill his fatehr taught him where he would wear a glove on his left hand and would have to catch the ball. This was done while he stood in a hitting stance and his father threw him "batting practice."

Or a lot of players/hitting instructors talk about the balance a player has allowing him to sit on a pitch. This gives him more time to read the ball and decide whether to swing or not.

by RJB7 on Jun 8, 2006 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

seems some guys

just go up there with the intent not take pitches. Doesn't seem like much of a skill. Mark Bellhorn comes to mind just because I saw him as I watched pretty much every Sox game. He took a bunch of pitches, eventually ending up in deep counts, then he would strike out on a fastball up and in. Didn't seem like he had much of a skill, just didn't seem to swing much.

by SoCalSoxFan on Jun 8, 2006 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

on another note

I do think it can be learned, and even adjusted. The Angels come to mind as the were slumping as a team and seemed to change their team philosophy and as a team drew more walks in a given period.

by SoCalSoxFan on Jun 8, 2006 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bellhorn

Yeah, Bellhorn is an odd cat. I haven't seen alot of hit PAs, but he does seem to take some hittable pitches and then end up striking out on a pitcher's pitch with two strikes relatively often. My guess is that to hit for power he needs to sit on a certain pitch in a certain zone and he doesn't deviate from this philosophy. He's completely content to take and rake.

I would never want somebody like Howie Kendrick who has natural ability to center and crush lots of pitches to take the full extreme Bellhorn approach. There has to be a happy medium.

"I may not be a class act, but I'm an American." Ron Artest on wanting to play for the Olympic team

by natsfan2005 on Jun 8, 2006 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

More specific information?

Any common elements that you all recognize in hitters's swings that do have good pitch recognition?

Any common mental approaches? I know the A's were famous for instituting a "patient" approach several years ago so what were they teaching their players?

by RJB7 on Jun 8, 2006 6:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

swing mechanics

The original post has lots of areas that could be addressed but I'll speak a little about the pro swing. As some ofthe other posts have mentioned....staying inside the ball will allow a hitter to see the ball a little bit longer (think Tony Gwynn)as opposed to a guy who doesn't, at least in theory. The thing is though that pro hitters are special as opposed to college and high school hitters. Take a guy who doesn't stay inside the ball and he can still walk alot because of big time bat speed. Great bat speed would allow a hitter who doesn't stay inside the ball, a little more time to recognize pitches.

All hitters had better stay balanced by the time they get to pro ball, otherwise they won't stay in pro ball unless they do something else special (such as a slick fielding middle infielder). Less movement during the hitting approach means less things to fix if a hitter is not going well.

The pro style swing is designed to get the bat into the plane of the ball as early as possible. I'm sure you have heard of Bonds and his drill where he catches tennins balls with his top hand. He does this drill to get the bat on plane behind the strikezone ...so to speak. Think of a guy in a boxing stance. Taking your top-hand, which would be by your waist, you move the top hand into a sort of uppercut motion. (hand staying palm up as in a hitting approach) The elbow is tucked close to the body and it is a straight motion to the ball or like Barry does in his drill....catching a tennis ball. (Think Barry Bonds). Watch Bonds swing or if you can visualize his swing, see how fast he gets the bat behind the strikezone. Its incredibly short and quick. This has helped him tremendously with pitch and zone recognition cause he sees the ball a little bit longer than many guys....among other things.

Take that approach and compare to some pro hitters who have longer swings. I think that would answer some of the questions of the original post. Swing mechanics do have something to do with zone judgement. The shorter your swing, the more time you have for pitch and zone judgement.

by melt12 on Jun 8, 2006 6:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

clarify

I can imagine Bonds's swing but having trouble putting together your analogy to the boxer. Wouldn't a left handed boxer keep his "top" or left hand up by his neck or cheek? Where does the "uppercut" come in then?

Thanks for the comment.

by RJB7 on Jun 8, 2006 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

tough

to explain. Don't think about where a boxer would actually hold his hand...literally. Think about the baseball swing. A guy triggers and strides.....the hands are near chest level. The pro swing wants the top hand to drop into the path of the ball(swing plane)by getting into the path as quickly as possible(behind the strikezone). The hand action is similar to throwing a punch but with a twisting action that brings the hand to the palm up position. Maybe instead of thinking of an uppercut to the jaw, it would be more of a punch to the gut. I think that might help visually. Its kind of hard to describe.

by melt12 on Jun 8, 2006 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Visual Aids

To generate the most powerful punch, you would thrust your hands and open your hips. If you look at this picture you can pretty well visualize a power punch if you take away the baseball context and you can kinda get the idea of what Bonds was saying. you can kinda visualize an uppercut

by SoCalSoxFan on Jun 9, 2006 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

good picture

Thats a good shot. Now just imagine that picture there and hitters trying to get into that slot as early as possible....in the slot behind the strikezone.

by melt12 on Jun 10, 2006 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thanks guys

Thanks guys. I really like that picture.

Any thoughts on the mental side of things?

by RJB7 on Jun 10, 2006 9:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The mental aspect

what I was getting at when I was talking about "have it or you don't" was pretty much mental. Some guys possess the mental aptitude but haven't figured out how to employ it. Those are the ones that can actually show marked improvement.

A good example would be to take 2 kids and put them in a difficult classroom setting such as a higher level chemistry class. 1 kid is very bright, but has never been highly educated. The other isn't a total dip, but he's not as bright as the other kid. The brighter kid will more likely be able to pick up on the chemistry class while the other is more likely to struggle. Same with hitting. A hitter that "has it" is more likely to recognize pitches and apply it to his motor skills, where someone that doesn't possess a good "hitting IQ" is far less likely to pick up on things and put it altogether.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jun 11, 2006 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't know if it's

as mental as it is just learning the right way. I was always taught swing at the ball below my hands, and get a good pitch to hit. up through high school i would be considered a money ball type of hitter, drawing walks and all that. In college, my coach expanded on that, had us draw our happy zone, the area where we like the ball, and also draw where we hit the ball the best. Usually not the same thing, I like the ball above the belt, but mashed the thigh high fastball on the inside half. Going off of that, the coach preached how I should only swing at "my pitch" in certain counts. I didn't handle the off speed pitches well, so why would/should i swing at this pitch in an 0-0 count.

Watching the Angels a lot, i live five minutes from them, i'm baffled at the number of times MacPherson and Vladdy and Kendry pop out on a first pitch change up. I know the adjustments can and will be made in time (maybe not w/ vladdy) and it seems like the hitting coaches should preach this at all levels of the system. My 2 cents i guess

by SoCalSoxFan on Jun 12, 2006 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

some stuff

that we do with our program for the mental part. We have our hitters track balls in the bullpen. One can never see enough pitching. Number the hitting zones, 1 for inside, 2 for middle and 3 for outside and have them call out the zone as early as possible in the pitch. Practice fouling pitches straight back....to let the ball get deeper with 2 strikes...an underutilized drill. Swing at everything drill. Sounds opposite of what your looking for but this goes back to being able to handle everything and learning what is a good pitch to hit. We put baseballs on drill bits and hook them up to the drill to simulate the CB spin, FB spin, Slider spin, etc.

Some of this stuff is visual but it helps the mental. We do a drill called "Carry the Guy" , I believe that we got it from Andy Lopez' book. You overload the defense in the OF with extra guys, keep the IF intact and then your hitting group must avoid 5 or 6 straight outs or 2 consecutive popups. This gives the hitters pressure AB's. All this stuff, I believe, will help a hitter mentally.

The other aspect is just understanding pitching patterns....in other words, hard in, soft away..... reverse book pitching, etc. I believe in physical and visual drills carrying over to the mental part.

by melt12 on Jun 11, 2006 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs