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Felix, Liriano, Hamels -- AD NAUSEUM

I don't know how many diaries have been dedicated to the "future aces", but I wanted to give my impressions from watching them, last night in particular.

Hamels: Tremendous control, far better than Liriano or Felix. Hit his spots at will. The only reason he walked anyone in the game is because he lost a little after running the bases in the 5th. Struck out the first 2 guys, then none after, but Arizona hit maybe 2 hard balls all game off of him. I don't understand, personally, why people can't put him in the same class as Felix, Verlander, or Liriano...

Felix: I don't understand why he doesn't throw his fastball more, and for more strikes. He's got such great movement on it... one example was a 2-0 2-seamer to Morneau that darted away and he got a routine grounder to SS out of it. Good for him that he was facing the Twins because he could have been hurt a lot more by his lack of control, which put him in hitters counts all night long... got a break when Hunter bailed him out by swinging at a tough slider on a 3-1 pitch to get out of a jam. He needs to develop more confidence to throw strikes before he takes a step further. I see a kid with all of the stuff and a lack of confidence at this point.

Liriano: Didn't have his best stuff, as evidenced by only 3 K's... also seemed to get agitated by things going wrong. I'm not sure if it's immaturity or a temper, but he really seemed bothered that Seattle was hitting him a little last night, and Gardenhire and company had to go to the mound a couple of times to calm him down. He needs to gain some poise for sure. He throws the hardest of the 3, but I wouldn't say he has better stuff than Felix. Definitely has the look of an ace, but has got to gain control of his emotions when things aren't going his way.

One last thing... if I had to pick one young position player to build my team around, it's Joe Mauer. The guy is phenomenal. He's great defensively, hits line drives all over the place, draws walks, doesn't strike out, runs well... pretty much everything except hit for a lot of power, and he will as he gets older. You can argue that picking a catcher is risky to build a team around, but I'll take my chances with that guy.

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Thanks for ...........
the post. Personally, I like hearing about the good young pitchers. I watched the Cole start exclusively and he looked very good. Excellent command. Nice curveball. Awesome change and a 94 mph fastball. What's not to like?

As for Mauer, I think he's just tremendous as well but wonder if he will remain a catcher for very long. I would vote for David Wright but I can see a case being made for Mauer, Cabrera etc....

"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Jun 7, 2006 1:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hamels
Saw last night's start as well, Hamels looked terrific.  Compared to his other two starts, his curveball was WAY better, much more buckle to it and he was consistently throwing it for strikes.  His fastball usually tops out around 94 mph, but it settles more in the 89-91 range, from what I've seen in his three major league starts.

by Yakker on Jun 7, 2006 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
Cole has a Zitoesque curve and I do not know why he doesn't utilize it more. Maybe needs more confidence with the pitch.

He spots his pitches well and can throw any of his pitches for strikes at any count.

He seems to wear down after the first time around the lineup. For all three starts in the bigs, he breezed through the lineup then got into trouble in the 5th or 6th inning.

Lefties can pretty much hold out hope for a walk as he's been dominant against them.

Control is the biggest problem. With someone who can throw wherever he wants most of the time, he issues way too many random walks. Hopefully he can correct this problem soon or else they will start taking a toll.

by yoda1 on Jun 7, 2006 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hamels' control
I'll admit in his first few ML outings he has been BB prone, but his H/9 (5.23 MiL career, 4.76 ML) is so low that the walks rarely hurt him.  That 5.23 MiL mark is better than Felix, Liriano and essentially any other pitcher who has ever logged close to as many MiL IP(201) as Hamels has.  The walk rate per 9, which really was decent at the MiL level at 3.31 (surpassed only by Liriano by at 3.23), should be down to about that level very soon as is evidenced by his steadily declining number of walks in each start.
"Look at that, he hit the fucking bull! Guy gets a free steak!" -Crash Davis Bull Durham

by Drew Wabes on Jun 7, 2006 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hamels
"I don't understand, personally, why people can't put him in the same class as Felix, Verlander, or Liriano"

I think he gets downgraded a tad from that elite group because his FB isn't on the same planet as F/V/L.

I couldn't agree more with starting a team with Mauer.  This is from part of the post I made after attending the Twins/Brewers series.  I think Mauer is the most valuable property in MLB.  The way he catches, defense, handles starters, calm assured confidence, and he is just scratching the surface for the type of numbers he is going to put up.

"...All of this brings me to the magic of Mauer.  I have not been to any Twins games this year to better document Silvas or Loshes struggles but I wonder if it is because they didn't trust Mauer more.  I didn't see more than a couple of nod offs by the pitcher and I think this helped Liriano and Boonser a lot.  He knew when to come out to the mound in very subtle situations before they could have led to big innings and he is mesmerizing to watch.  The coolest cat on the field and was amazing to watch catch.  Nothing rattles him at all and his demeanor is the same from BP to the 9th inning.   The Brews love to send Weeks stealing and they didn't come to close to sending anyone all weekend long.  He had snap up and throw to 3rd base on Sunday that almost caught Cirillo off guard that was an absolute dart.  It was very risky to throw too in the situation in the only late inning close game of the weekend.  His hitting is as good as his defense.  In batting practice it was like watching a machine hitting hard line drives all over the field.  if you make a Twins game I highly recommend getting a great seat to watch him take his cuts.  CRACK...to RF....CRACK....to CF......CRACK to LF and repeat.  Flawless mechanics hitting that he repeats every time.  His line drives in batting practice and the game sound like HR's.  Unreal contact skills.  I saw him swing and miss at 2 bad pitches the entire series against an "amped up" Turnbow on Sunday."

by FRANCHISEv2 on Jun 7, 2006 2:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

no doubt
Mauer deserves to be on the short list of under-25 guys you'd start a team with.  I'd strongly consider Grady Sizemore as well.  CF'ers like him may not be quite as rare as catchers like Mauer, but every time I see Grady play I think he's got to be damn near the PERFECT ballplayer.  What I love about him especially is that he slots in anywhere in the lineup--with speed and a .386 OBP he'd be a great leadoff man, and he has the power to bat cleanup--and he plays an excellent center field and should age fairly well.  Obviously a lot of folks would choose Wright or Cabrera and both would be great choices.

Sorry that was off topic... I'm a big Cole Hamels fan and I do believe that he is a blue chipper.  I'm somewhat partial to Liriano myself, but that's a personal bias--objectively I think they are in the same class, along with Verlander and Felix.

"Well I believe in the soul..."

by D O on Jun 7, 2006 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you were right
i can argue picking a catcher to build a team around...trust me, the mets did it with piazza (who joe mauer can only hope and pray to be a poor man's version of) and even piazza couldnt deliver a championship...whether or not you love mauer (which i personally don't as much as others but thats another thing) its just not a good baseball move...you have to figure that even the most durable catcher is gonna miss games throughout the year (most will miss a significant amount, especially those with knee problems...) and don't you want your best player in there as much as possible? the no-brainers are david wright, miguel cabrera, jason bay and then maybe someone like grady sizemore and probably a few more...mauer is a nice young player but seriously, him over david wright? no way

as for your other comments, i agree about hamels, i put him in that class with the other great young prospects, no question

by robcast23 on Jun 7, 2006 3:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Mauer and Wright
First of all, am I to understand that it's not even close? C'mon, have you checked out their #'s for this year... if you haven't, here they are:

Mauer: 368/423/521, 26.1 VORP
Wright: 327/400/559, 25.5 VORP

That doesn't take into account defense, where Mauer embarrasses Wright, especially when you take into account that Mauer plays an impact defensive position.

If your argument is anti-catcher based, then fine. But, if you are grading based on the value of the players, I think you'd better take a closer look. Oh, I know that Wright was better last year, and I would have taken him before Mauer before the season started. I have changed my opinion based on Mauer's prowess this year.

BTW, Cabrera is a better option than Wright, so I'd go Mauer, Cabrera, Wright. Bay is not really young enough for this...

by jc3 on Jun 7, 2006 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crawford?
I'm not sure I'd take him over Wright either, but shouldn't he at leasat be in the discussion?

by Yakker on Jun 7, 2006 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
i thought about him but wasnt sure if he was young enough...

by robcast23 on Jun 7, 2006 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok but...
based on that narrow-minded evaluation alexis rios is the greatest one of all...you can't judge a player based on not even half a year of stats, its just inaccurate...especially when you're completely ignoring previous performance, another thing that leads to inaccuracy in your argument

by robcast23 on Jun 7, 2006 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Previous performance" for 23 year olds
Exactly how many times was David Wright the #1 prospect in baseball as determined by John or BA or HQ or BP or whomever you'd like to cite? I'll tell you... none. Mauer was named by all of them as the #1 prospect (BP and BA twice). So, if you'd like to consider "past" performance or evaluations or whatever for 23 year-olds, then at least Mauer was considered the better prospect of the two.

Just because Mauer didn't hit like Wright immediately doesn't mean he's not the better long term property. The fact remains that Mauer has been the more valuable player in 2006 based on his offensive numbers + his vastly superior defense, and I really don't think it's debatable. If you'd like to use 2005 as your barometer, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see how that makes Wright more valuable this season or going forward.

Your argument about building a team around a catcher is much more plausible because of wear and tear and injury risk. I would buy that to an extent, and that would almost make me choose Cabrera. But, in the end, give me Mauer because I just think he's got a chance to be the best catcher we've ever seen.

by jc3 on Jun 7, 2006 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

projection<production
do not mistake being #1 on some prospect list with performance...just about the only prospects that aren't completely pumped up by projection are college closers, the rest are...especially HS catchers, moreso than any other prospect...the only performance mauer made to earn that spot was winning the genetic lottery when he was conceived...and do not tell me success in HS baseball in minnesota is performance equal to that of wright's first year in the majors

projections are just that, projections...they pale in comparison to actual production...tell me, what is a more accurate gauge of talent, a prospect list (even if it is one of john's) or a league leaders list? and also, answer me this, if former unanimous #1 prospect josh hamilton has a great first third of the season next year, should we crown him the new king over mauer?

i will NOT anoint joe mauer just because some noteworthy names gave him the benefit of the doubt back when he was in the minors...because hes not the #1 prospect anymore, hes in the show now and if hes not going to do it now, when is he? i didn't mind apologists for his lack of power back when he was in the minors but its 3 years later and while he looks like he will contend for batting titles, hes no closer to that elusive double digit hr season, let alone the mutiple 35+ years that piazza put up with ease (including his first full year, imagine that)...please slow down and maybe watch a mid-90's dodger game before you crown mauer king because i think you and many others may have forgotten how great piazza truly was

now, i understand mauer still has some growing to do but remember this: the real king, mike piazza, hit 35 in his first full year, no waiting, no need for apologists making excuses...frankly, if mauer can lick piazza's boots by the end of his career i will be VERY surprised...and thats no indictment of mauer but piazza was one of a kind

but again, in reference to wright, why pick someone who might be when you can pick someone who already is? wright has done it, mauer has not, at least not over the course of a full season which is MUCH more important for a catcher than you're letting on, especially one with concerns about his knees...now i admit, he'll hit for average and get on base like a star but a cornerstone, middle-of-the-order slugger has to slug and mauer hasn't shown that he can even be the best at his own position within his division let alone at the level of the league leaders (like a certain other catcher did perenially)...wright has and is doing so again this year...and since you're so fond of looking at the extremely premature 2006 #'s, how about we look at arguably the most important # in terms of the team, BA w/ RISP:

wright: .344 (17 pts ABOVE his already high, 4th in the NL batting avg)

mauer:  .293 (a whopping 75 pts BELOW his al-leading BA)

suddenly mauer's '06 doesn't seem like the greatest thing since sliced bread does it? i like mauer as much as the next guy but many people have been very very premature to hand him the throne by seeing him for what he might be rather than for what he is/has been

some extra points i don't think anyone feels like listening to me expand upon (but i will if necessary):
1)wrights defensive woes are blown way out of proportion
2)mauer has shown serious injury risk while wright has shown none
3)cabrera is NOT a better option to start a team than david wright (see: makeup)

PS - to end this argument, guess which major leaguer has the most innings played throughout the last 2 seasons?
oh yes, thats (w)right...

by robcast23 on Jun 8, 2006 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We'll just disagree
A few points:
  • IMO Mauer has taken a huge step forward this year, and his numbers tell it all. If you want Wright, that's fine, but to say that it is a no-brainer is not accurate. I can find a 3b who is as good as Wright, if not better (see Mr. Cabrera), but I won't find a catcher who will approach Mauer's all-around game.
  • Wright is not a better option than Cabrera. Cabrera has outperformed him each year in the bigs, was a major force on a WS winning team, and is just simply better. I'll take the pure talent and performance over "makeup"... funny how this argument is demeaned when Yankee fans try to pump Jeter up. BTW, Mauer's "makeup" is at least as good as Wright's.
  • Wright's defense stinks. His range has been well below average this year (Rate2 of 91) and he has an awful 3b arm. His defense has been extremely suspect in big spots this year, as well. Mauer's defense is phenomenal at a premium position.
OK, that's enough.

by jc3 on Jun 8, 2006 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also
Injury history needs to be considered. Mauer has had a lot of problems with his knee during his early years which I think will force him to eventually move.

IF Mauer stays at C, he should definitely be more valuable than Wright but since there is a very good chance that he can move to another position, I'd say they are about equal.

by yoda1 on Jun 8, 2006 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're probably right
this probably is enough, but why give up the last word when IMO you're so clearly wrong? either way, i can't leave it at that, not with such a bad taste in my mouth from your comments...plus i'm a nut...therefore the show will go on...

i'll address your points in order:

  1. i completely agree that mauer has taken a huge step forward but just because hes at a position that is particularly weak right now doesn't mean anything about him, its more of an indictment on catchers today...yes it makes him a more valuable commodity but its not like hes the only great SS in the AL like arod once was, its like i said earlier and you agreed, a catcher just can't approach the overall value of the other position players...especially a player like mauer who already has serious knee concerns at a position where knees are shredded annually against a guy like david wright who has played the most overall innings since he became a major league regular (look it up)...and conversely, just because there are 2 incredible 3B in the NL, it doesn't mean either of them are less valuable or less talented because of the existence of the other one like you're supposing...as for mauer's growth, its like you said, his 2006 #'s tell it all; hes batting for average but not power, how can you explain that without deferring back to projection and speculation? because if you do, you lose since wright no longer has to rely on projection, hes already putting up superstar #'s...bottomline, how can mauer be more valuable than wright, whether hes the top catcher or not, when hes on the field significantly less over the course of his career?
  2. the age old cabrera vs. wright debate...i've looked at this here before and you seem to be under the same misconception that many are; that cabrera and wright are @ the same point in their careers when they actually are not...while they were born within a few months of one another, cabrera is actually 1 full season ahead of wright as he reached the majors mid-way through '03 while wright came up mid-way through '04, which is important to take into account for the first 4-5 years of a hitter's career while he is learning the league and developing his swing...so when you say cabrera's #'s have been better every year, you're looking at it all wrong...you have to look at wright's current year compared against cabrera's previous year to accurately compare them...and when you do that, the results are strikingly similar...really look at these numbers and honestly tell me that cabrera is "simply better":
cabrera '03: 314ab .268/.325/.468  12hr/62rbi/25bb/84k  0sb
wright   '04: 263ab .293/.332/.525  14hr/40rbi/14bb/40k  6sb            

cabrera '04: 603ab .294/.366/.512  33hr/112rbi/68bb/148k  5sb
wright   '05: 575ab .306/.388/.523  27hr/102rbi/72bb/113k  17sb

cabrera '05: 290ab* .345/.398/.585  16hr/48rbi/27bb/56k  1sb
wright   '06: 224ab   .335/.408/.563  10hr/40rbi/28bb/44k  9sb

*those #'s represent cabrera's april-june in '05 since wright's '06 is obviously not yet completed

**defensive #'s obviously cannot be compared as cabrera moved all over but let me point out that to this point in '06, cabrera has 10 errors to wright's 9

so what can we take away from those #'s?

-wright leads in just about every BA, OBP or SLG ratio in every year
-he wins out in every k/bb comparison, an important indicator of a hitter's development
-balances his game with excellent speed which cabrera obviously cannot (or won't) do
-wright even catches cabrera in many of the aggregate #'s (except for k's obviously) even though miguel has higher ab totals in every year
-throw on top that cabrera's D at third looks even worse than wright's so far
-through these 2.5 years, cabrera also had a MUCH stronger lineup as he had delgado protecting him as opposed to wright, who regularly had either victor diaz or kaz matsui backing him up
-oh yeah then theres that whole "lack of effort" issue that cabrera has, stating that he doesn't have to listen to veterans and that he doesn't need bp or infield practice before games...then theres wright who is always the first one at the park and works harder than just about anyone i've ever seen

overall, you CANNOT still think cabrera is "simply better"...and at this point its almost ridiculous to suppose cabrera is even the better player...

3) to expand on wright's defense, his only real problem is sometimes he muffs the easy throws to first inexplicably but he has improved on that front and they only account for about 1/2 of his errors...and he gets so unnecessarily killed by pretty much anyone who doesn't see him on a regular basis for his error total, which is above average...because they only see the "E5" in the boxscore...but watching him every night you see a player who moves laterally quicker than nearly any 3B in baseball and consequently gets to a lot of the "ungettable" balls that require wright to make highlight reel quality efforts just to make the outs and if he can't make those circus plays, its an error...about half the time he makes the plays, explaining for the flat out ridiculous plays you commonly see him making on BBTN like the "over-the-shoulder barehander" last year in san diego which was once-in-a-decade quality or the foul ball where he dove parallel to the ground, ankles deep into the stands and made the catch, making jeter's in the stands catch look like childs play...the other half of the time it just proves to be too difficult but hes tagged with an error that another 3B wouldn't get because he wouldn't have even reached the ball and it would be a hit down the left field line...thats where the other half of his errors come from and for those who actually know that, we know his D should not be criticized for them...and there are no defensive metrics that can fully take that fact into account

your move, either we agree to disagree or you can feel free to keep this crazy thing going...

by robcast23 on Jun 8, 2006 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Age?
Cabrera is 5 months younger than Wright. So, if I get this straight, I should compare Wright at a year older than Cabrera at all times?

C'mon... move on. Cabrera's been the better player in '03, '04, '05, and '06. Get over it, please, and stop insulting my intelligence. Thank you.

About Wright's defense, stop. He's bad and the numbers bear it out. And I could point out that he's had errors that have been called hits, including a really egregious one in SF, where he made 2 hideous plays in the late innings.

And, about Mauer... he is putting up superstar numbers. Just because he's not putting up huge power numbers doesn't mean he's not... again, his VORP is better than Wright's, so how exactly is Wright putting up superstar numbers and Mauer is not?

by jc3 on Jun 8, 2006 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well
im not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, i just disagree...if you're taking it personally, then don't unless your last name is mauer or cabrera.

as for those 5 months, the only way you can make that case is to say that wright has an edge in physical development since he was born earlier, which is ridiculous...5 months might seem like a while when you're waiting for the summer to arrive or something but in terms of human physical development it is negligible...my best friend is and always has been 9 months older than me but since we were kids we've always been very comparable in height and weight, because even 9 months isn't enough to differentiate...once you get past a year or 18 months, then it starts becoming apples and oranges...so YES you should consider wright to be 1 year younger than cabrera...not in actual years but in baseball years and cabrera's baseball "birth" came in 2000, 1 full year before wright's

to expand on that idea, IMO the 3 important developmental benchmarks are the pro debut, the AA debut and the major league debut, all of which cabrera had a 1 year jump on, only further solidifying my idea that until they are both established as the hitters that they will always be (IMO usually takes about 3-5 years) cabrera will always be 1 year ahead of wright in terms of development, preparation, knowledge of the league, knowledge of pitching, etc...its inaccurate to compare the two of them year by year, the fairest and most accurate way to compare these two is to look at cabrera's previous years vs. wright's currents

because otherwise you're saying that the year that cabrera spent in the GCL was as valuable as wright's senior year in HS...so you think cabrera's AA year was right on par with wright's year in A ball?...and you think cabrera learned anything in that year in the majors that wright didn't learn in AA/AAA?  obviously there is a huge developmental difference between all of those levels which is why you have to consider cabrera to be 1 year older as a hitter and wright to be still catching up

and about the D, i know what the numbers say, hes got a bunch of errors, thats not my point...my point is that watching him on a daily basis convinces the viewer that some of the errors he gets would not be even possible for lesser athletes to attain...now you cite a game in SF as a day where they gave him the benefit of the doubt but if thats the only game you've seen then thats not enough of a sample size to disprove me...mainly because i can give you a number of examples where it was close and they gave him the error...however if i'm mistaken and you watch him often, and you still feel that what i've said about his quick lateral movement is wrong then im sorry to assume

by robcast23 on Jun 8, 2006 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh
and you don't seem to be saying a word about cabrera's atrocious D this season even though you're saying wright's bad D thus far lessens his value...care to explain?

by robcast23 on Jun 8, 2006 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Defense
They are both bad, so what's to really argue with? Defense only comes into play with the Mauer comparison.

by jc3 on Jun 8, 2006 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK
First of all, it's only a 4 month difference... oops :)

I guess I give more credit to Cabrera in that he got to the big leagues a year earlier and that counts for a lot IMO. Wright is an outstanding player, but I still don't see how you compare them at different real-life ages vs. your definition of "baseball age". I see your point about development stages, but my opinion is the fact that Cabrera advanced more quickly to the bigs than Wright counts. With your theory, you seem to penalize Cabrera for that. I agree that Cabrera's instruction was better at a younger age, but it's really his talent that got him to the majors quicker. As a matter of fact, it lends itself to the fact that Cabrera's ceiling is probably slightly higher due to his faster development curve.

Each year since '03, when they have been virtually the same (real-life) age, Cabrera's been better, and that is my point.  You compared their numbers when Cabrera was 16 months younger than Wright, and that IMO is misleading.

To be fair, there really is no correct answer. You really can't go wrong with either. But I stand by my premise that (so far) Cabrera has been the better player, and therefore, the better choice.

Regarding defense, living in NY, I get to watch Wright, but not as often as I'd like, so to quibble with you regarding range is tough... for that I've gone to numbers, which really is my only way to gauge it. The one thing I have noticed is his arm, and I am really unimpressed with it. He will probably improve because he's a hard worker and a good kid, but I don't ever see him being a top flight defender because of his arm strength. I could see him moving across the diamond to 1b eventually, and I could also see that with Cabrera. Hell, maybe Mauer too! :)

by jc3 on Jun 8, 2006 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

4 months, 5 months...
same thing

however i will say i thought about what you've said, about cabrera reaching the majors at a younger age than wright...at first i too thought he deserved credit for this but i decided that this was a product more of the somewhat flawed system in baseball where internationals can be signed at age 16 but domestic players clearly cannot sign until they graduate HS at age 18 rather than just the fact that cabrera was ready to be signed and wright wasn't...i see what you mean but just because a player is signed is not an indicator that he is ready, just that a team sees the future tools in him...if anything one could make the argument that cabrera wasn't quite prepared for pro ball as he couldn't elevate his BA above .275 til his 20 yr old season in AA...and just because wright wasn't signed at 17 like cabrera doesn't mean he was not ready, he was still a junior in HS and had to wait to graduate...in america, signing that early just is not done...i don't even know if its legal...

the solution obviously is what some people have speculated about internationals falling into the jurisdiction of the draft...

i also understand your beef with my comparison of their numbers...i suppose it fits along with my idea of a "baseball age" but its still a gap of 16 months between wright's #'s and cabrera's and that isn't like 4 months, thats approaching apples and oranges range...i didnt think about that...so its definitely not a perfect comparison and that may explain why wright's number's are so clearly superior all across the board...so i guess at this point it is just a matter of personal preference...mine is the hard-working, well-disciplined one who shows repect to vets, doesn't want anything handed to him and is clearly a very marketable face/name/commodity for the mets

i guess a lot of the same can be said for mauer but like you said in your last post, to this point in their major league careers wright has been the better player, therefore, hes the better choice...mauer's '06 clearly is standing out but only after he clearly outperforms wright for an entire season, like wright outperformed mauer last year, will i then think about choosing mauer

oh and i wanted to mention wright's arm...the common misconception is that its weak, and it isn't, he actually has a pretty stong arm...he often makes the dive towards the line-dig out of the dirt-heave across his body and he makes it well...the problem is that for some reason its not always accurate...and its always on the easier plays that he seems to airmail them about 2-3 feet too high...most of the time delgado (or mientkiewicz last year...ughh) still gets to them but hes pulled up off the bag...its something that i'm seeing less and less of, which is almost certainly a product of the extended infield he takes nearly ever day, but its still something that rears its ugly head maybe 1-2 a  month...i view cabrera as a bit of a mannyesque defender; a little lazy, sluggish and not prone to extreme hustle plays that don't necessarily have to be made (like maybe a pop-up in foul territory thats dropping near the entrance to the dugout...i watched this very play and he didn't even pay lip service, he took like 2 half steps and watched what turned out to be a very catchable ball bounce in foul territory...i'd be pissed if i were that pitcher...and i would NEVER excpet that kind of play out of wright)...so while they both have a lot of errors, i put them light years apart in terms of defense, even if only because of the differences in work ethic and effort

by robcast23 on Jun 8, 2006 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh and...
just to make me look like a real dick, i'm listening to the minny game on the radio as i typed that and as i posted, mauer cranked a ground-rule double...damn

either way, good debate...i'd still take wright but i like a good debate because i always end up knowing a hell of a lot more about say joe mauer or miguel cabrera afterwards than i did before

by robcast23 on Jun 8, 2006 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

mauer
mauers career will be better then piazzas....

mauer is a STUD behind the plate, defensivley....piazza was only average to slighty below average at his best.

Sure he could hit, but to be a complete player you need both aspects of the game.

Mauer with his approach will be hitting .330 yearly bank it.

by hotshotschamp on Jun 7, 2006 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow
for accuracys sake i'll begin with piazza's defense:

"at his best" piazza was well above average (.997 fp & 3 errors in '04), not "slightly below average" like you said

and to say "sure he could hit" to encompass piazza's incredible hitting ability is like saying "sure the universe is plenty big"...give the man some credit, he had 8(!) 30+ hr years w/ 7 years batting .318 or above, once batting .3 mother f'ing 62

oh and let me mention that piazza hit 35 hrs in his rookie year...yes thats right, in his very. first. season. so i'd say joe mauer is a little bit behind wouldn't you? i mean considering hes had trouble reaching double digits and all...

piazza slugged .561 over the course of that entire rookie season, all 3 thirds of it...meanwhile joe mauer is hitting out of his mind, as good as he ever has for power or average in the majors or minors...and is only at .521...thats 40 pts below piazza and that before the last 2/3 of dog days take their toll on that surgically repaired knee (the same one that piazza never had)

now i will not make excuses for his arm, it was never good and became terrible as he aged...but the ability to consistently nail runners is an aspect of the modern, "less fundamentals" game that few catchers excel at; its just not a priority today, especially not when compared to the power game...yes, piazza had a poor arm but in an era when most catchers do, it was much more palatable...and i don't think many will argue when i say that his bat made up for that weakness and then some (some meaning a TON)

so if having a poor arm meant that by your definition piazza wasn't a complete player, i can accept that...but then apparently you don't have to be a complete player to completely dominate the game for over a decade like no catcher ever has (or probably will again)...people make far too big a deal about piazzas arm, its like saying roger clemens doesn't sac bunt well...in terms of their impact on each game piazza played in, his offense was the mountain and his arm was the molehill, don't confuse the two

by robcast23 on Jun 8, 2006 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

RE
"I don't understand why he doesn't throw his fastball more."

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/charting-felix/

I would be careful judging pitches on just one outing... I think Felix's problem isn't strikeouts so much as pitch selection as the article says. I'd recommend anyone here to read the earlier bit on 'Young Aces' by Lasordiwhatever a few days ago in addition to this.

by Fett42 on Jun 7, 2006 3:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks!
An interesting read... I think my point was that he didn't appear to have confidence in throwing strikes with his fastball, but he had some success throwing breaking pitches when behind in the count. I'll keep a closer eye on this the next time I watch him.

by jc3 on Jun 7, 2006 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Article
That article was the biggest crock I have possibly ever read. To take stats from 15-25 plate appearences and call them a trend is, well, irresponsible. It's more likely short term variance that is causing Hernandez's woes early games than anything else. If I got anything from that article, it's that he doesn't throw his fastball enough.

by rwperu34 on Jun 7, 2006 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i know i dont

 and wont put him in there with Verlander/Liriano/Felix

 because the kid is made out of glass, has had many arm injuries and has trouble staying healthy. for him to be considered that he has to prove to myself that he can in fact pitch 200 innings atleast.

 which he is far far far from ever doing.

 that and i do not think his stuff rivals the other 3.

 that doesnt make him not good just i dont put him with those 3 elite's.

by High Heater on Jun 7, 2006 4:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hamels stuff
He has a plus fastball, change up and curve. his change up looks like one of the best in the league.

The only thing Hamels lacks is speed compared to the others. This is something that cannot be taught I agree, but his main pitch compliments his fastball better than the other pitchers IMO.

As far as the injury label. While he has been brittle, very few of the injuries were baseball related. So the fact that he reached where he is with limited mileage on his arm is good IMO.

by yoda1 on Jun 7, 2006 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

u do realise

 his injuries are arm related right...

 

by High Heater on Jun 7, 2006 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep
The arm break was from high school pick up game, hand from bar fight and his elbow which shut him down two years ago. Not really injuries from pitching (except maybe his elbow) which is good.

by yoda1 on Jun 7, 2006 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You guys forgot
Josh Johnson of Florida.

by rwperu34 on Jun 7, 2006 4:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Johnson
This is a thread about the best young pitchers in the game. It is very possible that Josh Johnson, SP, Fla., might be the best, although the least heralded of the bunch. He's definitely having the best year.

by rwperu34 on Jun 8, 2006 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mauer.
Now batting .373
Damn he's amazing...

by Justin & Joe on Jun 7, 2006 11:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Mauer
Mauer is a clear example of why analyzing the tatistical success for "high school catchers chosen in the first round" doesn't really have much use when applied to a specific choice. The same is true of high school pitchers. It only tells you where decisions  failed in the past - it may or may not apply to the current player or to future players.

by TT on Jun 7, 2006 11:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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