Best NL rotation

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 1:45 PM EDT Comment 37 comments

In my opinion, it's the Marlins. Willis, Josh Johnson, Scott Olsen, and Ricky Nolasco have been filthy of late, and Anibal Sanchez, who will replace Brian Moehler in the rotation once Larry Beinfest fleeces Omar Minaya for Lastings Milledge, just shutout the Yankees for 6 innings in his first major league start.

But that's just my opinion. You're entitled to pick a team other than the Marlins. You're just wrong.

Poll

Who has the best rotation in the National League?

Cardinals (wrong)

9 votes

Astros (wrong. also clemens is on steroids)

21 votes

Dodgers (very wrong)

5 votes

Brewers (wrong)

11 votes

D-Backs (wrong, except for Webb)

0 votes

Cubs (right! [in the bizarro universe where Prior and Wood stayed healthy)

4 votes

Mets (right...if they hadn't traded Scott Kazmir. HAHAHAHAHAHA)

19 votes

other (who else is there?)

9 votes

Marlins (correct)

18 votes

Giants (wrong)

13 votes

109 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 37 comments

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Comments

Who cares?

All the good rotations are in the AL.

by Justin & Joe on Jun 27, 2006 2:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i agree

that the best rotations are all in the AL. that doesnt mean that determining the best NL rotation is a worthless pursuit. by the way, if the marlins really do have the best rotation in the NL, the very season that they supposedly "ruined" their team, well I'd say thats quite an accomplishment.

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

how old are you?

by akk99 on Jun 27, 2006 2:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

what are you trying to say?

homerism and trask-talking mandate immaturity?

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually...

Yeah... I think that's the point exactly.

The Phillies have the best rotation because Cole Hamels is the Messiah.

*This message brought to you by The Church of Cole Hamels and Latter Day Lefties*

by QuixoticQuasiQuandary on Jun 27, 2006 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

cole hamels < scott olsen

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sarcasm > your response

Just because Scott Olsen is a good pitcher doesn't make him greater than the 2nd coming of CHRIST! Cole Hamels is the Messiah! Scott Olsen is just another lefty.

May Cole Hamels bless Scott Olsen, his family and his fans.

*This message brought to you by The Church of Cole Hamels and Latter Day Lefties*

by QuixoticQuasiQuandary on Jun 28, 2006 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seconded

by MontrealMets on Jun 28, 2006 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I propose a moratorium...

...on the word "filthy" when describing a pitcher's stuff.

by Steve F on Jun 27, 2006 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

sure

but only if we we throw out "electric" as well.

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

electric

i agree with this. i get confused: some people say francisco liriano throws 'gas'. other times i hear that his stuff is 'electric'. so which is he? gas or electric?

by wily mo on Jun 27, 2006 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That comment

made this otherwise worthless diary... uh... worthful.

by abbreviatedman on Jun 27, 2006 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jesus Kazmir...

Boy is it hard to enjoy this great season knowing that the idiots from the previous regime traded the almighty Kazmir! I almost hope that the Mets don't win the World Series, because surely it will be tainted by the blood of the Holy Kazmir, and the terrible sins of the past. Please give us Duquette, Looper, and Kazmir back!

by MetfanBren on Jun 27, 2006 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i detect a hint of sarcasm

to which i can only say, thanks for mike jacobs and yusmeiro petit. and gaby hernandez. enjoy paul lo duca (obp .321, slg .394)

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok...

I can't enjoy him! The stain of Kazmir will last forever!

I hope all those guys do well though honestly. Believe it or not you don't have to root against everyone who's ever been traded from your team. You should try it sometime. It makes Baseball even more enjoyable...

by MetfanBren on Jun 27, 2006 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i root for all ex-marlins

except carl pavano. i was happy to see him fail. maybe its a yankee thing.

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

a marlins fan should know...

but clearly you dont.

loduca is worth SO much because of the things you can't measure. as a big gaby hernandez fan i HATED the trade initially but loduca's leadership ability alone makes it worthwhile. then throw on the fact that hes one of the few catchers in the majors who will consistently bat .300 and that he is one of the smartest and most effective situational hitters and i love the trade for us.

the whole trade was a bit of an epiphony for me. months and months of this and a few other sites have gotten me a little SABR-happy. i couldn't appreciate a trade like this where omar clearly valued loduca for the stuff hes got that can't be calculated...but the overwhelming positive results of the trade as well as the fact that jose reyes (despite the OBP) is so obviously the best leadoff hitter in the NL, if not the majors, have kind of woken me up from my dogmatic slumber

not to say that #'s don't have a place (and sometimes a pretty big place) in player valuation but people here seem to revere them as the ONLY thing...and don't get me wrong, i hate hearing joe morgan tell me that despite the #'s jose cruz jr is still a great player just as much as the next guy...but the statheads around here need to step back a bit and realize theres more to the game than OBP & BABIP...and whatever it is, paul loduca's got it

by robcast23 on Jun 27, 2006 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

forgot to mention

the fact that loduca has handled the mets staff this season like a goddamn genius...

by robcast23 on Jun 27, 2006 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh boy

Sure there's more to the game than statistics. That being said, intangibles are something that I might use to separate players of similar statistcal quality, but not as a replacement for statistics. El Duque's "veteran presence" might make him better than some other dude who posts a 5+ ERA, but it doesn't make him better than a guy who posts a 4.5 ERA no matter how you slice it.

Jose Reyes is posting a .360 OBP at the minute and is one of the fastest players in the majors. As long as he keeps posting the numbers nobody will complain. If he doesn't post the numbers, then he's clearly not the player that you're suggesting he is.

As for Lo Duca, you say:

"loduca is worth SO much because of the things you can't measure."

Okay. So he's worth so much, but you can't tell how much he's worth because you can't measure the things that make him worth so much? Besides being convoluted, it doesn't make sense.

"throw on the fact that hes one of the few catchers in the majors who will consistently bat .300 and that he is one of the smartest and most effective situational hitters"

So the things that you CAN measure about Lo Duca's career are actually respectable. However, these certainly aren't why he's worth "so much" . . .it's those other things, you know, the ones that you can't identify and you can't measure.

Lo Duca's hitting a whopping .280/.321/.394 at this point - okay numbers but not more than that. He's also a noted 2nd half abyss in a lineup and usually posts an awesome first half, so we'll have to see how he fares later. In any case, I might like Lo Duca a little more than other .715 OPSing catchers because of his intangibles or I might not. However, there's NINE catchers in the NL alone with 100+ ABs this year who have a higher OPS than Lo Duca. Thanks, but you can keep your intangibles. Give me the guy who can hit.

by mrkupe on Jun 28, 2006 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

K rate

Well, the one thing that makes LoDuca worth so much in the 2-hole is that he's been the third hardest player to K in the NL this season. That's measurable, and he's giving up alot of ABs to let Reyes use his speed to advance. He's a role player and his numbers reflect that.

by MontrealMets on Jun 28, 2006 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

see post below

Not to keep repeating but LoDuca has batted over .290 1 time in his career (2001) and is a career .284 hitter. He is among the worst for full time catchers in every offensive and a lot of defensive categories.

There is a some mythical thing about him or all everyone remembers in 2001 but he has a low fielding %, can't throw runners out, has some of the emptiest stats for a career .280 hitter and it drives me crazy that everyone things he is so awesome. While he may manage pitchers well - the back-up is important too because he has played fewer games than most - only about 75% of the games so that means another catcher is also helping that team a lot.

If you really dig into the LoDuc career path - you will find there is a lot nothing there. Nice player, good career but not the great player everyone thinks he is. I argued with a lot of people last year that he was more capable than Willingham when some felt Willingham was being snuffed but at the same time...a little dose of reality.

by slickwdb on Jun 28, 2006 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

Worst thread / poll ever

Let me rephrase that. The idea was good (talking about the best rotation), the author was not

by Jgaztambide on Jun 27, 2006 3:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow

Worst comment/string of words ever.

Let me rephrase that. The idea was nonexistent, and the author had nothing to say.

Why dont you try contributing to the conversation next time? This is a forum for opinions on baseball, not literature critism. (I'm pretty sure no one here cares what Jgaztambide has to say about jrfelix.)

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re:

Touche'

by Jgaztambide on Jun 27, 2006 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it could easily be Philly

if injuries and potential can be met.

by Havok1517 on Jun 27, 2006 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

ehhh

i probably should have included them in the poll, but the fact that i didnt even think of them should mean something. i agree the hamels will be very good, and that myers is too (when he's not hitting his wife). after that, what do the phillies have? Lieber and Lidle will never be more than back of the rotation guys to me, and madson has been a complete disaster in the rotation. what am i missing?

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 27, 2006 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

It could easily included Gonzalez, Floyd (tons of potential if he can get his act together), Wolf, and Lieber isn't bad. Their farm system is loaded with good pitching propects.

Also, Pit could be great in a few years.

by Havok1517 on Jun 27, 2006 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

show me

a legitimate (not potential) ace, then maybe i'll begin to consider the phillies rotation...

by robcast23 on Jun 27, 2006 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hello homer...

Sure -- a team that's 7 games under .500 has the best pitching in the NL.

And it looks to me like the Mets are enjoying LoDuca (not to mention Delgado) and the view from on top the NL East just fine...

by Ur on Jun 27, 2006 8:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The best of Loduca is already gone

While I am a fan of what it seems he is able to do with a pitching staff - he is the most over rated offensive catcher because of what he did in 2001.

His OBP, SLG and run production are terrible.

He usually hits in the 2nd spot and he only scores 45 runs last year? Yes, I know that runs are a function of someone knocking you in but he always seems to have very "empty" offensive production.

Delgado is a different story but the Marlins did not make out too badly with the players they got from the Mets in this off season.

by slickwdb on Jun 27, 2006 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not if

your expectations are reasonable...most rational observers would agree that '01 season was a big aberration year for him...i don't want to even begin explaining how or why but it most certainly was...

now if you see him as the hitter he is, what hes gonna do for you will look pretty nice:

-hes someone who will bat you .300 from a position where that isn't common

-display VERY professional hittings skills aka move runners over flawlessly, sac fly with the best of them, shorten up with 2 strikes, take the walk...basically hes a tremendous situational hitter

-he is about the toughest hitter in the majors to strike out, important with reyes in front of him...i can't remember the last strike 'em out, throw 'em out i saw

now if you expect 20+ hrs and a whole bunch of rbi's, you're going to be disappointed...hes someone who is perfect for a lineup that has run producers to spare, who can do just about every little thing you can think of and someone who shows so much leadership ability, on and off the field, that i can't even remember the mets without him

by robcast23 on Jun 27, 2006 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The whole not-K-ing thing...

... is so overrated. Sure, occasionally when he makes outs he moves the runners along. But he makes a LOT of outs, and doesn't compensate by slugging. Being a good situational hitter is one thing, but actual production at the plate is so much more important.

That said, he's supposed to be an excellent pitching guy, so you gotta love that part at least.

by abbreviatedman on Jun 27, 2006 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

.300?

Are you kidding? He hit over .290 1 time in his career - 2001 and is a career .284 hitter impacted by the .320 season.

As I said above - he does work well with pitchers and was a reason why I argued with people last year when they were all screaming the Willingham should be given the job last year and I said that was a joke given Lo Duca's ability to handle a pitching staff.

However - as far as hitting goes - he is at the bottom of sacrifice flies (1), total bases, pitches per plate appearance, ISOP and almost every statistical category for catchers. He is not in the top 10 for runs created either.

On top of that - his defensive stats stink too - caught stealing %, fielding %, etc.

If you really dig into this guys stats - he is below average so either he handles a pitching staff really well or just knows when to move to a new team and what team to move to because he is one of the most overhyped catchers in all of baseball IMO.

by slickwdb on Jun 28, 2006 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

rbi?

This isn't a "thinking fan's" site, is it?

Seriously, though, what is it about Lo Duca? Whatever pheremones he has, how could they work through the TV?

by Vaux on Jun 28, 2006 3:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

lol

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Jun 28, 2006 4:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love how this has turned into a LoDuca debate.

Read Neyer's article on intangibles on ESPN.

Also, I remember it being Someone-Or-Other's Principle that the worse a catcher hits, the more he's lauded as a defensive gem and the heart and soul of the franchise. Which would mean that LoDuca is single-handedly saving the game from... err, whatever's ruining our diamond-shaped cathedral.

by abbreviatedman on Jun 28, 2006 10:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

A little info on heart and soul of the Mets

The Mets are 12-8 with out him in the line-up which is a .600 winning % - a drop off but not the kind of drop you would think happens when the heart and souls takes off every 3rd or 4th game. They have a few other players that might be impacting the success (Reyes, Wright, Delgado, Beltran all playing way above the levels they played last year or in Delgado's case, a higher level than the 1B last year).

by slickwdb on Jun 28, 2006 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs