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Around SBN: Dissecting Nick Diaz's Positive Drug Test

Just Manny being Manny

I hate that f***ing phrase. Manny gets away with anything and it really irritates me. He constantly asks to be traded only to change his mind a week later and the Red Sox are still letting him come to spring training late? When Miguel Tejada wanted to be traded did anyone give him the "get out of jail free card" and say, "Oh, it's just Miggy being Miggy." No. Nobody did that. They just called him an ungrateful batstard. WTF? I'm starting to seriously think that Manny Ramirez is somewhat mentally retarded or has the intelligence of a first grader. Why else would they let him get away with this crap? Sure he's one of the best hitters of the last decade, but one day the Red Sox need to grow a pair and hold this guy accountable.
Here's what I think a conversation between Terry Francona and Manny Ramirez is like after Manny has just asked to be traded, for the ninth time.

Francona: Manny. Come into my office.
Manny: Yes, Mr, um, Mr...
Francona: Manny, for the hundredth time, my last name is Francona.
Manny: Oh yeah. Im forgetful sometimes.
Francona: I know, Manny, I know. Manny come and sit on my lap.
Manny: Ok.
Francona: Now Manny, I heard you were saying some things to the press again, is this true?
Manny: Yeah.
Francona: Manny, how many times do I have to tell you? You can't talk to those people unless you ask me first.
Manny: I know Mr. Zambona, I'm real sorry. I'm forgetful sometimes.
Francona: I know Manny, it's not your fault. But you have to promise me that you will never do that again. Do you promise?
Manny: I promise.
Francona: Ok then. Now go take some batting practice Manny, but only if you want to.
Manny: Ok.
Francona: Manny, look at me.
Manny: Yes?
Francona: You know I love you right?
Manny: I know. I love you too Mr., um, Mr...
Francona: It's not important.

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Emergency
Tito said Manny's excuse is valid.  Tito hasn't really been the type of guy to cover for him in the past, he's benched him/thrown him under the bus before.  There seems to be a legitimate reason why he will show up one day late.
The Boston media loves tearing Manny apart, and will take every opportunity do to so.  This is really no big deal.

BTW, as long as he chips in his .950+ OPS, I could care less what he does.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Feb 22, 2006 8:28 AM EST reply actions  

"now take some batting practice..."
I understand your just trying to be funny, but Manny is at the park before anyone else is working on his swing and taking batting practice, more than anyone else on his team.

I don't like the phrase much either, but I really don't care what he does as long as he continues to hit .292/.388/.594

Obligatory response to next comment: "Yes, but what about when he stops hitting?" Well, his contract will be up at that point, and he will be paid less than he is getting now, so it won't matter all that much.

by Marc Normandin @ Minor League Ball on Feb 22, 2006 8:35 AM EST reply actions  

The Manny
is stupid like a fox!  I believe the correct term is "country dumb."

by derbosspresident on Feb 22, 2006 9:14 AM EST reply actions  

manny
Why does Manny get away with what he gets away with?
  1. He's one of the greatest and most consistent hitters of his generation.  When you produce the type of results he does, players tend to get some leeway.
  2. He won a World Series for Boston, if the Boston press started ripping on the guy, the fans would revolt against them.  He won us a freakin World Series!
  3. He's harmless.  Manny isn't a diva like Pedro, he isn't an a-hole like Bonds, he isn't psychotic like Carl Everett.  He's not malicious or rude or mean.  Yeah, he's an idiot, but he's a harmless idiot and you really get the sense he doesn't mean any harm.
  4. Because he's Manny.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 9:33 AM EST reply actions  

Manny
He's not being allowed to show up to camp late. He's being allowed to show up to camp on time. This is a non-story. The only reason it's even in the papers is because there is absolutely nothing for the writers to talk about right now. There is no reason to even bitch about it.

by Brian38 @ Minor League Ball on Feb 22, 2006 10:11 AM EST reply actions  

late
While I agree about it being a non-story, he is going to be late.  madatory report date for MLB is Feb 28, not march 1.  That makes him late.  by a whole day.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Whatever
It's amazing what you can get away with when you post OPS+ over 140 eleven years in a row and counting.  And he'll continue to get away with it so long as he continues to post numbers like that, too.

Hold him accountable for what?  What, exactly, is he doing to the Red Sox?  He keeps playing the game, he's not dogging any more than he usually dogs (that is to say, he doesn't give that much of a damn about playing LF, but since when did he?), and, again, being Manny at the plate makes up for a lot of drama in the press.  His teammates seem to range from tolerance to liking him as a guy to have around.  And he himself seems to understand that the Sox aren't just going to give him away and won't trade him if they not getting value back (and it's an implied compliment to his own value as a player that they won't trade him without getting value).

by NBarnes on Feb 22, 2006 10:28 AM EST reply actions  

This is different than miggy
Miggy wants to be traded cuz he took a ton of money and now he's on a bad team.  Manny wants to be traded cuz he's unhappy, and we sure know winning isn't the problem in Boston, the man won a frikkin World Series there.  

Miggy, like Arod, wanted to have their cake and eat it too.  Manny just wanted some frosting and ended up with the most ridiculous press you could ever find.  

But boy is it a pleasure to watch him swing the bat

by Jgaztambide on Feb 22, 2006 11:20 AM EST reply actions  

Manny
First - I have to say the interview is hilarious.

The big difference is Manny never ever knocks the team, the players, or the organization.

by pedrophile on Feb 22, 2006 2:26 PM EST reply actions  

Blinded by the OPS
You give him too much slack and credit. Everytime he demands a trade or doesn't show for ST he spits on his Team, Players, and Fans. He can mash and he is a great player, just don't pretend he is looking out for anyone's feelings or cares about anything.

This is the kind of behavior that I can't stand. The reason I love Baseball is in spite of players like this that are so many in other sports. You can't accept behavior like this. If it is tolerated it will be the demise of the sport.

Not trying to be mean, just don't kid yourself about a player because he is good.

Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Disagree
Manny, to me, is a clown. However, he's pretty harmless when it comes down to it. His teammates love him, and that's what counts.

Now, on the other hand, I agree with you if you are talking about Bonds or Milton Bradley or someone of that ilk. Those guys are first-class jerks, and you would only root for them if they were on your team. Even then, I'd find it tough to root for a guy who attacks a fan like Bradley or Albert Belle or is a complete racist jackass like Bonds. We are definitely in agreement on those types of guys.

by jc3 on Feb 22, 2006 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Manny
Manny, like EVERY OTHER PLAYER, is paid to play baseball.  That's his job and that's all I expect of him and all any fan should expect of any player.  Manny does so very, very well and in spite of his oddities genuinely seems like a nice enough guy, so I see no cause to complain.  

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

No
You must expect more. It is not good enough to just show up and play. He owes his community. He owes his fans to be nice and interact with them. He owes it to his boss to act right and not embarass himself, the team, or the other players. This is what I mean. If you compromise on behavior then the inmates start to run the prison. I will not respect or tolerate a player that I believe is not gracious or at the minimal does not resent ME, the FAN.

 

Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

cronie....
that was hilarious!... he get's away with it for the same reasons as everyone else in team sports does that performs at a high level. Because they can. How do you expect him to give a crap about anything when he has more money than he could ever spend in 100 lifetimes. It's a joke! I understand players get the money, whatever. Be humble. Take a lesson from guys like Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams, Troy Aikman...etc. Why is that so much to ask? As long as we as fans are paying the money to see these guys then, ulimately, we are to blame. It wasn't like that back in the day. I wish it wasn't like that today because the talent is better than ever.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 2:59 PM EST reply actions  

bullcrap
"Wasn't like that back in the day"
No, back in the day, you had players who climbed into the stands to beat up armless hecklers.  Everyone talks about the 'good old days', but guess what, they weren't actually any better.  You had players showing up drunk and throwing World Series for money (you think they cared about the fans?).  
Stop deluding yourself.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

that's....
your whole argument. O.K. What about today? You like the way these athletes act? You're the idiot!
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Act
What exactly is your point?  I didn't say that those actions are acceptable, though Manny for the most part is pretty harmless.  i said you're deluded for thinking the 'good old days' were actually any better.  They weren't.
Oh, and I also said you're an idiot for your overtly bigotted comments.

Oh and if you want examples of white trash in sports, how about john Rocker?  Pete "I thew away my legacy for a couple bets" Rose?  Wayne "The next Pete Rose" Gretzky?

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

first of all....
I'm no biggot. Second, Rocker was a total jerk. Pete Rose had a very bad addiction that hurt all parties involved. I don't believe he was a malicious person. Wayne Gretzky, just plain moronic!
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Gretzky
Did not bet on sports. The NJ police illegally released information on the case just as the Olympics were starting. Many presume this is to take the heat off the whole betting ring was led by a former NJ police officer.

Even if they prove Gretzky bet on other sports that is not illegal or immoral.

by pedrophile on Feb 22, 2006 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Illegal?
it was an illegal gambling ring. If he placed bets with the ring, he was doing something illegal.  If he bet on Hockey, while a player or coach, he should be yanked from the HoF.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 23, 2006 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

They arent accusing.....
.... Gretsky of doing anything illegal. They are getting all on his back because they are saying his wife gambled and he knew that she gambled and didnt/couldnt stop her.

There has also been no accusations of anyone involved in hockey betting on hockey. In fact, all reports say that none of the hockey players, etc. involved gambled on hockey, only other sports.

Now I will admit that it is illegal for them to have bet at all but its nothing they should be kicked out of the sport for. They should get the same fine or whatever that everyone else would get and then should be left alone to go back to their job. Theres is definately no point in going about dragging Gretsky's name through the mud when he hasnt done anything illegal at all and hasnt even been accused of illegal activities.

by grozzy on Feb 23, 2006 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Hah!
It wasn't like that back in the day

Ty Cobb.

by NBarnes on Feb 22, 2006 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

or
Rabbit Maranville, who wasn't even all that great...

by Brickhaus on Feb 22, 2006 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

BTW......
I have been racking my brain trying to think of one caucasian athlete that acts in such a disrespectful manner towards their organization and I can't think of any. Now, before all of you start calling me a racist let me first say that my wife is from Venezuela and the mfg plant I run has primarily minority supervisors that I promoted. Having said that, do these athletes have a chip on their shoulder? What is it? Why the T.O.'s and Randy Mosses and Albert Belles and on and on? When is enough, enough!
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:07 PM EST reply actions  

well...
I have thought of one, Jeff Kent. But, given the fact that he had to deal with Bonds and Bradley I'm willing to overlook the transgressions....
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait what??
You want to attribute bad athlete behavior to race?  And not, say, the millions they earn and the worship they receive??

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

no.....
not at all. That is absolutely part of it. I think that some deal with it better than others.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Confusion
You mean you think race is part of it, or what?

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I am merely...
stating a fact. There are many minority athletes I admire tremendously. I am as big a Bernie Williams fan as anyone. I have nothing against anyone. Look at it this way. Oriental athletes are as humble and respectful as can be. Guys like Ichiro, Matsui are very well respected not only because they are good but because they act accordingly. Another example. The mid 90's Dallas Cowboys. Who disrupted that team. Not Troy Aikman, Darrell Johnston, Jay Novacek but Nate Newton, Michael Irvin. I am asking, why is that?
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok look
I'm sure you have a lot of respect for minority athletes, but it doesn't hide that you're making a connection between

athletes that do drugs and act like jackasses

and

race

whereas I would make a connection between

athletes that do drugs and act like jackasses

and

money, yes-men, fan worship, lax guidelines in a system that loves to say "boys will be boys" which in fact encourages them to act as if they had egos the size of small planets

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

o.k.....
good point. Seriously, now please write down your top ten athlete jerks. You'll be surprised at what you find.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Well...
I'd say Bill Romanowski is a pretty high-level jerk, and last I checked he was white...

by jc3 on Feb 22, 2006 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Boggs
Boggs was a sleazeball.  Clemens' character is certainly questionable from a fan's perspective.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait....
when did Boggs or Clemens act like Belle, T.O., Moss? Not hardly....
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Clemens
Stabbed 3 organizations in the back, boggs was a womanizer and generally a jerk to the press.  You don't like that Manny wanted to be traded, what do you think brought Clemens to NY?  The Toothfairy?

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

One person to ask
Mike Piazza. Ask him about Clemens.

by jc3 on Feb 22, 2006 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

in my opinion...
bad argument. ask any hitter about Bob Gibson.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Different
Gibson was a tough SOB and everyone knew what would happen in certain situations. He also wasn't trying to injure someone out of frustration.

Clemens blatantly threw at Piazza's head, and Piazza has no respect for that. Nor should he.

by jc3 on Feb 22, 2006 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

no difference...
people know Clemens to be the same way. One indiscretion doesn't put him in the same category as what I'm talking about. By the way, I don't like what he did either. I'm not trying to say he's a saint by any means.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Crimson...
even if I spot you Clemens, Boggs, Kent, Romanowski. My list will blow that out of the water. Truthfully, I would like all athletes to act like the asian/oriental athletes. What great character they have. Very polite. Very respectful. Humble. Let's face it, in todays society. It's popular to be a thug!
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

oriental Athletes
Completely different culture, in their society, individual personality is repressed to a degree you don't see in the US.  You should also take a look at how they treat their women as a society.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Partially agree
I think that we should, first, stop using the word Oriental.  Athletes from Japan are going to act differently than athletes from China or Korea.

And even in Japan, which is the country we're concerned about, individual expression in sports has been on the rise in the past 30 years.  

But yes, Japanese women are treated like crap.  Then again women in this country are treated like second rate citizens too a lot of the time.  

It's interesting how the Japanese youth are finding ways to buck the salaryman/woman ideal of the 80's, and while individual freedom is nice, it raises a lot of concerns about the future of the country.

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Now you're going into how they treat women?...
I'm talking about how they act with respect to the fans and their respective organizations. Stay on point.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

lol
So, treating the fans good is important, but treating their wives like doormats isn't?

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

no.....
I'm saying that's not the topic of discussion. Next, you'll be talking about world hunger.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Clemens is a money whore
That is not the point. He does almost as much for his community, UT, and Memorial High as any man has is sport. He is approachable and gracious at least in speech. Even though he is one of the 5 most famous atheletes of all time if not higher.
Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Rose
Rose is a great guy in person as well, so are most politicians.  Does that mean that they aren't sleazy buttholes?  Certainly not.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You questioned his character
I am saying that is not valid. If anything he is a super character guy. That does not mean he will not bend over an owner and take what he wants.

He gives back. He supports a ton of organizations. He gives his wife so much money to do philanthropies that she is one of the charitable leaders in this area. That is character.

Don't compare that to Rose. And don't drag Wayne into this whole gambling thing either.

Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?
Why not Wayne?  his wife and personal advisor/assistant are involved in a gambling ring and you buy his claims he didn't know about it whatsoever?  puh-lease

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

oops
That should say assistant coach.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

um
His wife bet on that ring. It is not even illegal to be in a gambling ring. It is illegal to bring people in.

by pedrophile on Feb 22, 2006 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't recall.....
him ever being as bad as the guys I'm talking about but I'll give you Mr. steroids.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Mr. Steroids
By "Mr. Steroids", are you referring to Giambi or Sheffield?

by SmokeyJoeWood on Feb 22, 2006 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

well....
in this case I was talking about big head Bonds but if you're trying to point out that Sheff and Giambino took steroids. Yeah. Good point!
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Romo
Can't believe people still like this guy, and that he made money in movies.  John Clayton, who I respected at one point, wrote an article about how he was some great gamer a while back.

He ruined people's careers (one guy's at least), and hit the tar out of his own teammates during practices.  

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Top ten list
Here is a quick exercise for anyone to get a feel for what Pinstripes is trying to say. I did this a month ago for a radio show.

Quickly in less than two minutes write down the 10 most villainous CURRENT atheletes or CURRENT atheletes that do not represent their sport in a good light.

I did this and nothing was mentioned about race before I did the list. I was completely suprised by the list that I created. Right at that moment I thought that I must be some kind of racist.

Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

is that
because they are the worst or because the media makes them out to be the worst? Also, what are the proportions of white v. black v. hispanic players in different prosports?
Some of the worst I can think of...
Bob Knight
Barry Bonds
Sheffield
Romo
Marty McSorley (dunno if he's still playing, it's been a few years)
TO
Artest
BH Kim (not the worst by any means and doesn't really belong on the list, but felt he ought to be mentioned after pinstripes' fawning over asian players)
Eli Manning (a petulant, spoiled little brat)

Some of the best:
Troy Brown
Tim Wakefield
Edgar Martinez (retired, but just the epitome of a classy guy)
David Ortiz
Tim Duncan
Brett Favre

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly
And I bet that if you make a Top Ten list of Corrupt Politicians, a lot of them are going to be old white guys.  Doesn't mean anything about white people in general, just as you can't draw conclusions about African Americans in general from what Shamus and pinstripes are talking about.

To conclude that conduct that's illegal or detrimental to the team is significantly affected by race is a very problematic statement, to say the least, in my opinion.

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Media
Now, media portrayal of athletes and coaches is something to talk about.  It's amazing how so much gets glossed over, both good and bad, and I think a lot of it does have to do with race.  Not that the media is comprised of racists, persay, but because stereotypes are just the easiest way to tell a story, since opinion is already there...

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

you need to revise that list a tad...
Kim?
Manning?

How about adding the following,

Randy Moss
Milton Bradley
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Carl Everett
Albert Belle
Ugueth Urbina
Manny Ramirez
Ricky Williams
etc...etc...

"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on Kim
What exactly has he done besides give up those HR to the Yankees? Oh yeah, that's misrepresenting the sport...

by jc3 on Feb 22, 2006 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Well
He did flip off Fenway Park

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh...
didn't remember that. Include Jack McDowell, then... :)

by jc3 on Feb 22, 2006 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It's one thing
When you're an opponent.  Flipping off the fans who are shelling out hefty dollars to pay your bloated salary is pretty crappy and does not match the near saintly picture of Asian players pinstripes paints.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

You are
not telling the truth. If you don't do it off the top of your head it is not valid. If you think Eli Manning or Bret Favre is representing his sport wrongly then we have different views on what that means.

If you think the media is racist then you are wrong. The media is notoriously race-bating, but saying that "he" is not being portrayed fairly because of "his" race. They cut enough slack for minority atheletes to run the Kentucky Derby inside the slack.

My list consisted of 9 African Americans and Tony Stewart because I wantch NASCAR and I hate him.

I was just trying to give a racional example of what Pinstripe was saying so people don't just start bashing him as a racist, which is unfair.

Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

If you actually READ
the list you'd see that I put Favre on the OTHER side of the argument.

As for Eli Manning... I think any spoiled little rich brat who whines and cries like he did to get to NY is absolutely an example of some of the worst crap in the sport.  It's a different kind of crap than what TO does, but it's still crap and it still stinks.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

so....
is Elway an ass too?
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

yup
Shitty move. Plain and Simple.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

And
if Michael Vick or McNabb had pulled it, the media would have ROASTED them and they'd still be hearing about it.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

hahahaha
Michael Vick did pull it. The Charges made a trade because of this.

by pedrophile on Feb 22, 2006 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

A harmless exercise
It is not a racist thing. I said I was so suprised by my result when I did it a month ago and thought it was a valid point for what Pinstripe was talking about.

Plus, it is a top ten of the top of your head. This environment is not condusive to that. It is not a bad guy list. It is the worst 10 off the top of your head.

Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

wow...
this diary turned awkward. But by all means please continue the conversation.

by cronie on Feb 22, 2006 3:58 PM EST reply actions  

just...
trying to spice things up....lol
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually
I'd say John probably should have locked the diary right after pinstripes ignorant post about race.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:00 PM EST reply actions  

Oh, please
First of all, most of the asian athletes can barely speak the language and usually have a translator who is trained in translating the "right" thing.  I've done some translating for a professional team, and I was instructed going into it to take anything that could be deemed questionable or skecthy or that would rub people the wrong way and give it in English in a more acceptable manner.  

White players are very very skilled at talking to the media (with a few obvious exceptions).  I've seen minor league players doing interviews for papers or News shows and seeming very humble, well natured, etc etc, and as soon as the tape stops rolling they're the biggest jerks of all time.  

Pinstripes, I suggest you not judge players on how the media portrays them, whether in a good light or a bad light.  The media is a group of people, and people have their biases, both positive and negative, and they will report through those biases.  

I feel confident in saying that Bernie Williams is a great, humble, courteous person.  I feel likewise confident in saying TO is a selfish idiot.  But in between is a gray area I don't think we should tread on.  

And I agree with whoever said that people are improperly remembering "The Good old Days".  Are you serious?  Baseball used to be played with the biggest jerks you could ever find.  There are plenty of a-holes in the baseball books: Cobb and Ruth are two of the greatest players ever, and they may be two of the biggest scumbags ever as well.  

And finally, can we all look in the mirror before we say "I wish these athletes would do XYZ" or be more humble or whatever?  I was at a bar recently when some big shot, late 20's stock broker waltzes in ( I happen to know the guy, play poker on occasion).  This dude is as cocky as can be and starts talking about how athletes should be more humble.  Pot calling the kettle black much?   Come on.  

As they say, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone

by Jgaztambide on Feb 22, 2006 4:01 PM EST reply actions  

you know what....
you make a great point. That's much better tha Liederhosen's know it all arrogant remarks. You'll find a Liederhosen snide remark in most blogs.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

well.....
your also not very bright. Your whole argument is that I'm a biggot. I'm sure my latino wife would agree with you. Most of my employees would probably agree too. You, are just an idiot! I've always thought you were a jerk-off. This just clinches it!
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Racism
Look - I'm not going to go out and say you're a bigot.  But I do think that some of the things you say in this thread have made use of some bad stereotypes and assumptions about race.  

The issue is a lot more complex than "The Top 10 Idiot Athletes are All Black" - because even if you could prove that, which I don't think you can, we would STILL need to talk about how the media portrays race, how we perceive race, how the various sports leagues pander to racial stereotypes even as they try to homogenize and control their athletes....

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

sasquatch...
I'm merely throwing out names and asking a question... Never have I said anything nasty about blacks, hispanics or the like. I have many minority friends who agree with what I am saying. The person that brought this topic up during lunch happens to be one.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

one issue
The problem with your theory is, if you look back at baseball before 1947, when it was all white, you'll find hundreds of stories about guys in the league "misbehaving". Ty Cobb, Joe Medwick, Babe Ruth, Carl Mays, the 1919 Blacksox: they all did some horrible things.  

I don't think race has anything to do with it.  
I do think one could argue that economics and upbringing is a factor, but that is a whole different discussion.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Feb 22, 2006 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know
what that has to do with this. The issue was people that are not representing their sport as of 2:30 PM CT Feb. 22, 2006. 100, 90, 80... years ago has nothing to do with anything. That is like saying my great great grandfather was a racist and I hate him when you never met him or know anything about him.
Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

huh?
I was responding to Pinestripe's post regarding race, It's a valid repsponse if you read the posts it is reposoding to.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Feb 22, 2006 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

The argument
Also included references to "The good old days" which as I mentioned earlier, weren't really any better, just older.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

To you and Smokey
I don't think anything said was a racist comment here. A statement someone makes about a perception or observation can't be thought of as racist. A racist remark is to meant hurt someone by making a derogatory remark about their race.

Also comparing a statement to an act of physical racist violence of the past is not just. The generations of the past are not to be compared in social responsibilities. They did not live the way that we do now and were not conscious of things that we are now.

My point of this whole thing is that Please don't say that someone is a racist from an observation that the comment on. It is such a harsh word that you should always be sure about.

A good question to ask yourself about this would be; Do I think that Pinstripe or Shamus are rooting for the detriment of a race or would they willingly partake in an act of violence against another human based on that persons race?

Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 22, 2006 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

actually....
I understand that I was mistaken when I said "the good old days". You're right. Now, given what you said about the white players back in the 30's, 40's whatever. Does that make you a racist? I don't think so. It just so happens that those players now happen to be minorities.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

my point is
My point is that all human beings can act like jerks, regardless of race.  If you get 1,000 human beings together at random, a certain percentage of them are bound to be a-holes and primadonnas.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Feb 22, 2006 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Words
I don't care who you're married to or who works under you.  Your comments reek of racist stereotypes.  being a bigot wouldn't stop you from marrying someone who isn't white either.  I.e. my great uncle who brought back an asian bride when he came back from Japan.  huge bigot, but my aunt was very dutiful and respectful as he felt a wife should be and he saw it partly as a conquest.  he was a pretty sick guy.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

well....
point taken. I assure you my wife is no slave...lol.. I can guarantee you that.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

interesting post-script
he later tried to divorce her, which meant basically that her family would never speak to her again and she'd be stuck in the US alone so she tried to stab and kill him.  My grandmother stopped her and he agreed to act married and talk to her family from time to time on the phone to keep up appearances so she would be able to visit home from time to time without her 'disgrace' being known.  She still lives with my grandparents, very nice woman.  I'd have never expected her to try to kill anyone.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

not about good/bad
I don't think he ever once said certain groups were better or worse people. Just that it is very suprising that most of the people that represent their teams poorly are minorities.

I do not buy the media thing. Then you are talking some big conspiracy theory.

So what if the white guy is a jerk behind the scenes and nice on camera? Would you rather him be both?

It isn't about good/bad. It's about players embarassing themselves and the team in the public eye.

There is a difference from racism and trying to pretend that the problem doesn't exist.

And you even imply the white guys are smart enough to act on camera - thus implying us white guys are smarter than other races. I don't think you meant it. But those comments to me were worse than any others.

by pedrophile on Feb 22, 2006 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

huh?
"I do not buy the media thing. Then you are talking some big conspiracy theory"

I'm not talking about a conspiracy at all.  Are you trying to tell me that Media members and media outlets aren't biased?  Are we living on the same planet?  I'm not necessarily pointing to a race-bias, I'm talking about bias in general.  

"So what if the white guy is a jerk behind the scenes and nice on camera? Would you rather him be both?"

I don't even know what this sentence means, but what i meant by my statement was that you can't judge a player by what you see on Camera or what's reported, because players are two-faced (like many people, I don't mean to single the players out).  Frankly, i would prefer it if everyone were nice and cuddly 24/7, but I don't know what that has to do with anything

"There is a difference from racism and trying to pretend that the problem doesn't exist.

I think I understand what you're trying to say here, but I'm not totally positive.  But if you're saying what I think you're saying (That pointing out a certain behavioral patern is not racist, it's an observation), then yes, I agree to a point.  

"And you even imply the white guys are smart enough to act on camera - thus implying us white guys are smarter than other races. I don't think you meant it. But those comments to me were worse than any others."

That's not what I imply at all.  I don't know if that's what you wanted to hear, but considering you're the only person to see it that way, I think it's fair to say that's not an accurate portrayal of what I was saying.  

Being media savy and being smart are completely uncorelated.  There are plenty of stupid people who know what to say in front of the camera and plenty of smart people who are completely oblivious.  Maybe not everyone realizes the implications of what they say.  Maybe some people want to be seen in a different light.  But the smartness assertion is one that you made / saw, not one I implied.

by Jgaztambide on Feb 22, 2006 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Schilling being Schilling
What happened to this guy?  has he been kidnapped?  As of yesterday he had ben in Camp for 4 days and I don't think he's said so much as "peep".  Is there a walrus involved here somewhere?

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

i hate.......
Curt Schilling... add him to the list as well.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Why he could
He disgraced himself in front of Congress, along with McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, and the rest. Could be more than just beating the Yankees, you know...

by jc3 on Feb 22, 2006 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

what?
At risk of taking this thread on another detour, how on earth did Curt disgrace himself?  

I hope you aren't saying he is a user, the guy looks like a professional bowler.

He was the one guy in that courtroom that could hold his head up.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Feb 22, 2006 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Schill
Schilling has his problems, notably his overlarge mouth and his inability to stop words from flowing out of it as well as his willingness to sell any and every product placed in front of him with a $20 taped to it.  But as yet he isn't in the palmeiro, mcgwire, sosa group as far as infamy goes.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

you got that right....
he's definitely a walking advertisement for Dunkin Donuts!
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll answer that question..
because he has a big mouth. You always point out that I'm slanted because it's obvious that I'm a Yankee fan. My favorite player of all time happens to be an ex Red Sox player. Dwight Evans. As far as I'm concerned the Red Sox fans hate the Yankees more than vice versa. Probably, because we always win. But, I digress. Schilling has always come across as a jerk. Same as Big Bird.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

well...
Pinstripes, in the future, can we just get a list of people you DO like?  Is it the Yankee team with a couple stragglers?

You sure have a long list of people / things you hate, some of them seeming pretty harsh.  There's a lot of hate in your posts.  

I'm kidding of course, but to a degree

by Jgaztambide on Feb 22, 2006 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

that's........
no fun.
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

ok...
I dislike Curt, even as a Red Sox fan, but mostly cuz he has a big mouth.  He's never done a single thing to warrant anything more than "slight annoyance" or irritation.  If we're gonna put people on a list for having a big mouth...

Well, Gentlemen, I feel like a lot of us would be on said list

by Jgaztambide on Feb 22, 2006 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Fault
I don't fault 'stripes for not liking him.  He's a Yankee fan, that's the natural order of things.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

well.......
definitely myself and liederhosen... :-)
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

CRONIE.....
Please do another conversation thread. This one was hilarious!
"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Feb 22, 2006 5:13 PM EST reply actions  

Curt Rolls...
5d20 and casts a "Silence" spell on "the pinstripes"...

by The Colonel on Feb 22, 2006 5:14 PM EST reply actions  

I...
I don't even know how to repsond to this

But there was a soft chuckle

by Jgaztambide on Feb 22, 2006 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I've always wondered
What it would be like if someone took 2nd Ed. AD&D rules and made a pen and paper Baseball RPG.

Sorry.  Just a thought.

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

well
I don't know exactly what the D&D rules you're talking about are, but there are some very good baseball sim games out there, and I know they involve different sided dice.  Does 20 sides sound right?  It sounds like a bit much, but I think i've heard of them.  

There's a card game a friend of mine loves called MLB showdown that involves rolling dice, but I don't know if it's realistic or not, or if it's any good

by Jgaztambide on Feb 22, 2006 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Showdown
Is more of a spinoff from Magic the card game.  i think the original Stratomatic is probably the closest to baseball (though oddly enough the creator of the Magic card game was a huge Stratomatic fan and his original board game designs spun off from it).

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 22, 2006 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd just like to say
This thread is making my head spin. It started off pretty innocent, took a violent, angry turn, then turned into personality bashing, and then moved on to Dungeons and Dragons. I think I'm feeling ill.

by Marc Normandin @ Minor League Ball on Feb 22, 2006 7:34 PM EST reply actions  

You know, back in the day
Back in my middle school days, what you described used to be known as "Friday afternoon"

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well played my friend

by Marc Normandin @ Minor League Ball on Feb 22, 2006 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Bringing it back to Manny
Manny is out of the WBC, according to reports from the Globe.

Rather unfortunate, if you ask me - I was looking forward to that lineup filled with 3 and 4 hitters, and frankly, Manny could probably use the games to warm up; it took him until June last year.

by sasquatch83 on Feb 22, 2006 8:50 PM EST reply actions  

More
Vernon Wells could miss the first round with a quad injury.

Chad Cordero is out as well.

Looks like Francouer will get a lot of playing time in RF. Excited to see how he plays.

by colinadam on Feb 23, 2006 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoops
Not Chad Cordero

 Texas Rangers closer Francisco Cordero has a sore shoulder that will keep him from competing for the Dominican Republic in the World Baseball Classic.

by colinadam on Feb 23, 2006 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Manny
Considering what he brings to the Red Sox it's no surprize that they put up with his stuff. It's not like he's a clubhouse cancer or anything. He's an affable guy who is the village idiot. He does stupid things once in a while but as long as he keeps on hitting as well as he has done and just about any GM would be willing to tolerate his antics
Nats Fan (Yeah I know). Also commenter at AN

by Razr on Feb 23, 2006 1:50 AM EST reply actions  

Exactly
And as long as his actions remain more daffy than malicious, we've got very little to complain about.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Feb 23, 2006 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

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