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Hansen vs. Hirsh vs. Carrillo

Prospect Smackdown: Craig Hansen vs. Jason Hirsh vs. Cesar Carrillo

   In my Top 50 pitchers list this season, I rated Craig Hansen of Boston at number five, Jason Hirsh of Houston at number six, and Cesar Carrillo of San Diego at number seven. Thinking that this ranking might be controversial, I asked a poll question about this a few days ago. We had 384 responses to the question "Which Prospect Would You Rather Have?" The results: Hansen 44%, Carrillo, 30%, Hirsh 25%. As you can see, the readers don't agree with my placement of Carrillo just behind Hirsh. So I thought this would be a good topic for the return of the "Prospect Smackdown" feature.

BACKGROUND AND INTANGIBLES:
  Hansen: Drafted in the first round in 2005, Hansen was the 26th overall pick in the draft, but would have gone in the first ten picks (or even the first three) were it not for signability concerns. The St. John's righthander was dominant during the college season. Scouts praise his aggressive nature, and feel that he has the proper emotional makeup to be a fine closer at the big league level.
  Hirsh: Hirsh wasn't considered a top prospect out of high school, and ended up pitching for Cal Lutheran, a Division III college. The Astros picked him in the second round in 2003. He struggled in 2004, but made gigantic strides in '05, dominating the Double-A Texas League. Although he reportedly lacked confidence at times in '04, he was self-assured and aggressive on the mound last year. Scouts praise his work ethic.
  Carrillo: Carrillo was drafted in the first round in 2005, the 18th overall pick in the draft. Renowned as a high school athlete in Chicago, Carrillo had outstanding sophomore and junior seasons for the University of Miami-Florida. He is extremely polished, and impresses coaches with his work ethic, confidence, and attention to detail.
  Comparison: Carrillo had the most high-level amateur exposure, with Hansen not far behind. Hirsh was much more of an unknown, but has certainly made up for lost time. All three draw praise for their work ethic and intangibles.

PHYSICALITY AND STUFF:
  Hansen: Hansen is larger than most pitchers at 6-6, 210 pounds. His fastball can hit 96-97 MPH, but even at 91-93 it has above-average action. His slider is also a plus pitch, but his changeup is mediocre and not particularly reliable yet. He has a good pitcher's build and should be durable, although he wasn't throwing as hard in September for the Red Sox as he did for St. John's in the spring.
  Hirsh: Hirsh is huge at 6-8, 245. Despite his size, his velocity was quite mediocre until 2003, when maturity and mechanical adjustments boosted his fastball. He now works at a consistent 90-93 MPH. He has a plus slider, and has turned his changeup into an average pitch. Some scouts projected him as a reliever until 2005, due to concerns about his stamina, but he's proven quite durable as a starter. He wasn't abused in college and has a fresh arm.
  Carrillo: Carrillo isn't a big guy, listed at 6-3, 175 but looks smaller than that on the mound. He generates plus velocity because of excellent arm speed, his fastball hitting 95-96 MPH on good days and working consistently at 90-93. His curveball and changeup are effective pitches, both rating as major league average or above. He has clean mechanics that should help him stay healthy, although his slight build worries some scouts.
  Comparison:: Hansen has the best pure stuff, though Carrillo isn't far behind. Hirsh's fastball isn't quite as impressive, but is still an above average pitch. Both Hirsh and Hansen have plus sliders, while Carrillo offers a sharp changeup and curve.

PITCHABILITY AND PERFORMANCE:
  Hansen: Hansen shows much better command than most power pitchers his age, and owns a 17/2 K/BB ratio in 16 pro innings. His college record is marked by strong K/IP and H/IP ratios, reflecting his plus stuff. He is not just a thrower, having a better sense of pitching than many similar college fireballers.
  Hirsh: Hirsh's control is unusually good for such a tall pitcher, reflected in an excellent K/BB ratio last year. His K/IP and H/IP were also above average, and in general there is little to nitpick in his '05 profile. His '04 numbers were much weaker, and it is true that his '05 home park was good for pitchers, but scouts believe his improvement was genuine.
  Carrillo: Carrillo has outstanding command. It took him a few starts to get used to pro competition, but by the end of the year he was dominating Double-A, winning four of five starts with strong ratio sets across the board. Statistically, everything is above average or better. He combines the polish and control of an experienced Division I product with above average velocity and movement.
  Comparison: All three pitchers have a good feel for their craft. Carrillo is the most polished overall, but Hansen has excellent command for a hard-thrower, and Hirsh has made huge strides with his control. All three have strong performance track records in `05, though a direct comparison between Hirsh (who has more pro innings under his belt) and the other two might be misleading.

PROJECTION:
  Hansen: Hansen is physically mature and probably won't add much velocity from where he already is. He was born in November of 1983. Scouts believe he will be ready for the majors sometime in 2006, or 2007 at the latest.
  Hirsh: Hirsh is more athletic than most players his size, and while it is possible he could pick up some additional velocity, it's not exactly likely give his age (24). He was born in February of 1982. He probably needs half a season of Triple-A before being ready for the majors, but he should be ready by '07.
  Carrillo: Carrillo is a very good athlete, but is unlikely to gain much additional velocity given his size. Born in April of 1984, he is the youngest of the trio and the most athletic overall. He should be ready by 2007.
  Comparison: None of the three are likely to gain much in the way of velocity from where they are now. Hirsh is the oldest, but also had the least amateur experience of the three, which tends to balance things out on the development curve.

OVERALL:
   Well, this smackdown doesn't result in a clear winner in my mind. All three pitchers have slightly different profiles and strengths, but none of them have massive glaring weaknesses.
   Hirsh's main weakness is the fact that he didn't really blossom until he was 23, but in a way that is also a strength since it means his arm is fresh. Carrillo's main weakness is that he is somewhat slight physically, but he's a great athlete and an efficient, polished pitcher. Hansen's main weakness is that he needs a better changeup, but as a reliever that is less important.
   Bottom line: I think Hansen has a very slight overall edge compared to Carrillo and Hirsh. Picking between that pair is very tough. Ultimately I went with Hirsh over Carrillo in the book, essentially because he has a longer pro track record to analyze. But it's a tough call.

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I still have a problem
rating any closer an A- no matter who it is.

by Ienpw on Feb 14, 2006 12:26 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Carillo....
...is a starter
-peter

by PeterF on Feb 16, 2006 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Misunderstoof
I imagine he's referring to Hansen.

by rowdyjosh on Mar 30, 2006 11:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pelfrey
I think Mike Pelfrey has better stuff than any of them.

"rating any closer an A- no matter who it is."
Agreed. A good starting pitcher is worth far more than a great closer.

by Emad on Feb 14, 2006 12:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Size Matters.
All other things being equal, I will pick the biggest guy, but Hansen isn't small either.  Carillo rates behind by a hair due to lack of size.

by DrBGiantsfan on Feb 14, 2006 1:02 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

role matters; track record matters; age matters
I agree -- I'm somewhat stunned that Hansen being a reliever isn't held against him. Unless he reaches the very peak of his role model -- Eric Gagne -- even if he turns into an excellent closer he'll still be much less valuable than an excellent starter. If, as john is saying, it's virtually pick-em among the three, then it seems to me that Hansen's role, by definition, makes him the least valuable -- he'll pitch less than half the innings of the other two (given good health).

Between Hirsh and Carillo, I'm just a bit suspicious of a pitcher whose velocity takes a bump up one season. It's anecdotal, but my impression is that often those one-season bumps in velocity aren't sustained. That's a bit speculative, but even beyond that Hirsh has one season as a plus prospect, whereas Carrillo has sustained excellence for a number of years (albeit for a lesser period as a pro).

Most importantly, Carrillo is almost two years younger than Hirsh...well, to me that makes it a slam dunk.

To me, I'd take any of the three, but Carrillo is the clear favorite.

by scooter on Feb 14, 2006 9:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I read it...
as a "pick'em" because Hansen is a reliever.  Whereas if he started he clearly would rank ahead of the other 2

by kenshin1 on Feb 14, 2006 9:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hansen
I'm a Sox fan, and I'd still trade Hansen straight up for either of the other two in a second.  To me, there's a REASON Hansen's a reliever, in that he only has two plus pitches and nothing else even ML average.  That's why he can't start.  To me, a very good starter beats an excellent reliever any time.

Likewise, I'd take Lester or Papelbon over Hansen.  And Scott Elbert over Jonathan Broxton.  And so on.

by abbreviatedman on Feb 14, 2006 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hansen Can Start
Hansen could start if he wanted to. It was a toss up between him and Pelfrey who has the better arm in the draft. Both are electric.

Hansen started a playoff game for St. Johns and did very well and there was buzz that the Red Sox might try him out as a starter. Of course, now he looks like he is pegged to be a reliever, but we live in a baseball age where so much importance has been placed on relievers and especially so for  teams heading to the playoffs.

Starters are more valuable. Yes. However, relievers are becoming increasingly important and when top tier closers cost 10-12 million these days and set up men are fetching 5-6 million, Hansen has serious value. Of course, he has to transform into that player, but the same could be said about Pelfrey and needing to transform into a good starter. I think Hansen is going to be dominant for a while and very affordable. Boston fans are going to be very, very happy.

The Metros

by themetros on Feb 14, 2006 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Put me in the pen coach
Can't remember the last time I heard a guy say that. I would think if he had a preference it would be to start. I guess he doesn't want the money, respect, of HOF possibility either. Last I checked your reliever salaries are a little high and in any case it was a market error that will be corrected in the future. That or all salaries are on the rise.
Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 14, 2006 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hansen has 3 pitches...
...but he hasn't had to use (or had the chance to refine) his 3rd pitch. Remember, he was looked at as potential starter in last year's draft.
-peter

by PeterF on Feb 16, 2006 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

contradictory argument
he has 3 pitches, or he hasn't "had the chance to refine" his 3rd pitch?

it's the latter. in today's Globe there's an article in which he discusses, in fact, having worked over the winter on a change-up which he previously considered unusable. if Hanson develops that 3rd pitch, then I'd agree that with his superior fastball he's the best of this trio of pitchers.

in fact, at that point, he'd be good enough to be a starter.

the other two, however, already have the pitches to be a starter, which is why they are superior. we all have heard the story about guys working on a new pitch that looked fabulous over the winter in their back yard, but don't make it when the real games begin. this summarizes precisely why Hansen is in a less important role, and should be the less prized prospect (and I say this as a Sox fan, so not like I have an ax to grind against the guy).

by scooter on Feb 18, 2006 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hirsh velocity
played against him in college. he was throwing 97 in the 7th against us. his velocity jump this year was hardly shocking, it was his velocity drop in 04 that was shocking.

by taggartd on Feb 14, 2006 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hirsh
There was no velocity increase last year. 2004 was the season where his velocity and breaking stuff was inconsistent. His draft scouting report was that he could reach 97 with the fastball. The K rate jump was mainly because his breaking stuff was much much better this year.

The problem I have with Carrillo was that he was mediocre in high A and the reason everyone seems to be getting excited about him is 30 AA innings. He probably has a higher upside than Hirsh, but Hirsh vs. Carrillo is no slam dunk either way.

by stubbyc on Feb 14, 2006 4:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mediocre in high A
Carrillo really had two stints at High A.

The first time through, he dominated so much in 4 starts that he was jumped to Mobile. He was sent back to Elsinore at the end of August because the Storm were headed to the playoffs and Mobile was done.

At that point he'd thrown around 180 innings in 2005, between college and the prs.

He got hit in his last two High A starts, which pumps up the ERA when you only have 25 innings of context. Even so he struck out 10 per 9 in A ball and AA, without any rookie or low A expereince.

by Hurley on Feb 14, 2006 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Carillo
I'm not as high on him as others. Something about him. But the numbers/stuff are undeniable.

I wouldn't consider him in the top ten pitchers though.

10 better, in no particular order:

Justin Verlander
Chad Billingsley
Francisco Liriano
Joel Zumaya
Jeremy Sowers
Jason Hirsh
Mike Pelfrey
Dustin Mcgowan
Anthony Reyes
Homer Bailey

www.faketeams.com SportsBlogs' own all-sport fantasy blog. Check it out.

by ohad on Feb 14, 2006 10:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

he said
no particular order. i wouldnt put billingsley ahead of liriano as well, but cain or verlander, cases can be made.

by npurcell on Feb 14, 2006 8:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, my bad
The way he had them laid out looked like a top 10, but I clearly need to read more carefully :D

by limozeen on Feb 14, 2006 10:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Buying your book
John,

I want to make the leap and buy your book for the first time. I'm living in Israel until the summer, but don't want to wait until then. Can you ship here? How much would it cost?

www.faketeams.com SportsBlogs' own all-sport fantasy blog. Check it out.

by ohad on Feb 14, 2006 10:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

israel
We can ship anywhere. I'm not sure what it costs to mail to Israel, but we can do it once we know the cost.

Email my wife Jeri at JSBN01@aol.com and she can work things out.

by John Sickels on Feb 14, 2006 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks
I'll get around to it, there is a possibility i'll ship to california and then have it brought over.
www.faketeams.com SportsBlogs' own all-sport fantasy blog. Check it out.

by ohad on Feb 14, 2006 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Height
Just an aside:  Isn't it funny that we are calling a guy that is 6'3" a little on the small side?  I understand his weight compared to size but it just struck me as funny.

If 6'3" is small than what are guys like Wagner and myself (5'8")?

I'm not sure I want to know the answer....LOL!!

by kienast on Feb 14, 2006 11:50 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Three great pitchers
A couple of younger guys with high potential vs. another young"ish" pitcher with high potential with two full years experience. Depending on the state of your club one or the other might help you more. All are good guys to have.

That said I have seen Hirsh pitch ,which leaves an impression more than just looking at words on a page. Just to state it I value a starter over a reliever, even a closer. I also don't see a realisticaly higher ceilling for one over the other. All that considered I put Hirsh at the top for need purposes.

I think Hirsh has to be considered ML ready and tested. He is the only guy you would be able to say can put up a ML workload for sure. Carrillo threw a lot of innings last year with a break and not against MiL talent. There is also much less injury risk with Hirsh. He has not maxed out his body in effort or potential. I don't trade Hirsh's fastball, stamina, pitchability, or intangibles with either of the two, so I don't see why I would want one of the other guys over Hirsh.

It seems that no one is interested in this so I am not going to put a bunch into it unless someone else wants to break down the players more.

Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 14, 2006 3:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Carrillo
The drastic difference in statistical performance from High-A to Double-A is pretty bizarre(although the Cal League is generally a hitters' league).

I don't see how a reliever with 10 games worth of minor league experience can be an A- propsect.

by Ian Miller on Feb 14, 2006 7:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

See above
Carrillo's High A line is completely skewed by two bad starts at the end of the season, after throwing 180 innings.

If the Padres hadn't sent him back to Elsinore after Mobile finished its season, his High A line would look something like:

21.2IP (not 25.2)
7 earned runs (not 20)
27 K
3 walks

by Hurley on Feb 14, 2006 8:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good thing
That we can all pick out the bad days in our life so they don't count. (See OJ Simpson)
Tim Purpura, This Bud is for you.

by Shamus on Feb 16, 2006 1:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Context is not an excuse
It's not a bloody knife, no alibi, and a high-priced legal team, either.

The uninformed see some radical performance difference between Carillo's A and AA experience. It's not. It was 4.1 bad innings at the two best hitter's parks in the Cal League (saying something there), for a heavily worked pitcher in his first pro campaign.

by Hurley on Feb 19, 2006 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my top 3 of the group...
Hansen
Carillo
Hirsh

Hansen's bigger and more consistent FB velocity helps and his physicality is a bonus... Plus, if Boston didn't want to hurry him along as bullpen help, they could make him a starter.

Carillo's a pitchability guy w/ velocity, where Hirsh is a pitchability guy w/out velocity... And as another poster noted, Carillo's younger. Carillo will be a solid MLB starter (2-3 man eventually).

-peter

by PeterF on Feb 16, 2006 1:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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