HELP!!! -- The greatest players of all-time
Hey guys. I'm visiting from AN.
I'm putting together a list of the greatest players of all-time and as one step in the process, I'm enlisting fan support.
As members of the sportsblog community (that aren't Angels fans), you are probably smarter than most, so help me out.
Click here to see the nominees and vote on your own Top 10.
Thanks
0 recs |
63 comments
Comments
Type-o
by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 12:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Double X's years in Boston
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Foxx belongs top 20.
Total gamer and seriously love that he pitched his last year in the league.
by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No doubting Foxx's greatness ...
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in what category
You are too much a slave to WARP3.
Your options are laughable, sorry.
Including Ripken and not Foxx or Dimaggio invalidates the entire thing.
by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Foxx's years in Boston?
- Or was it that he only averaged 37 homers per full season (more than Ripken ever hit in one year)
- Or was it that he only hit .320 over those 6 years (Ripken hit over .320 in one full season in his career, and had a .280 lifetime average)
- Or was it Foxx's .420 OBP? Ripken's lifetime was .340 with a career high of .375
- Foxx's Slugging during that time? over .600. Ripken's career high was .566
- Foxx walked 19% of the time and Kd 17%. Ripken walked less than 10% of the time and Kd 11%
by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously he is among the least
His numbers are horrible on average and his game streak was at the deteriment of his team.
He is the all-time leader in GIDP's.
HE does have a sub 280 BA.
He does have a sub 800 OPS.
by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well then, feel free not to vote for him ...
After 1991 he trailed off and was simply a good to very good player the rest of his career, but that added ten seasons of goodness on top of ten seasons of greatness. He excelled in all three categories -- total career value, peak and average.
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1991 was good year
He never broke 900 OPS other than that in a full season.
Ripken should not be in the HOF and discussing him as a top 20 player is crazy.
by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ripken...
by grozzy on Dec 18, 2006 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Streak=Overrated
by CrimsonLiederhosen on Dec 18, 2006 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that is false ...
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was never great
SHould have moved to third.
by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
different eras, different positions
Ripken played in a much less offense friendly era (for most of his career -- the part where he built his qualifications for greatness) than Foxx did and he played shortstop in an era where shortstops looked like Ozzie Smith and Walt Weiss.
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not the first complaint about him ...
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bonds?
- Swing and swagger imitation: check (and syringe imitation, too)
- Pencil into AS lineup: check
- Tell our kids about: check
(excuse me while I find a place to puke now)
by BobbyMac on Dec 18, 2006 1:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
like I specifically said ...
He clearly maded the cut based on the criteria of the first round. If you want to knock him for his transgressions, please do so by ranking your top-10 and leaving him off.
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My top 10
- Babe Ruth
- Ted Williams
- Willie Mays
- Mickey Mantle
- Rickey Henderson
- Lou Gehrig
- Jimmy Foxx
- Vlad Guerreo
- Ty Cobb
- Joe Dimaggio
by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 1:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'll bite
by jc3 on Dec 18, 2006 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Defense.
Pujlos needs a few more years to belong and Bonds I am sure we can all guess why I exclude him.
Vlad--
Check out his all time numbers: (I tend to over value OPS) and his is top 20 all time (16 overall). Then I start looking at defense and Speed and of top 20 guys he looks in top 10.
Remove: the Roid guys McGwire, Bonds, the DH's Frank THomas and the Colorado stats from Helton and he is 12th in all time OPS.
You can argue against me but I do not think it is insane to include him.
by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only current players who should be discussed
- Bonds
- Arod
- Pujols
by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At the pace he has going
Of course, it's entirely possible that we have not yet seen Pujol's best seasons yet and those dates could come sooner.
I-Rod is pretty close to belonging in the discussion too. He was pretty close to getting an HM.
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
please
by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 2:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not religiously adhering to WARP3
I'm perfectly comfortable saying that if a guy wasn't in the top 20 in WARP3 he doesn't belong in the top 10. Foxx put up great offensive numbers, but he did it in a great offensive era. His contributions were less valuable to the A's and Red Sox than Ripken's were to the Orioles.
Do you have any disagreements with the nominees other than Foxx and Ripken? If not, I would say that the methodology worked pretty dang well.
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
But it's pointless. It's too late. You've made your top 20 picks and have said that those are the 20 and they aren't up for debate, so what's the point debating them.
If Ripken were more valuable to the Orioles than Foxx was to the As or Sox then why did Foxx finish in the top 15 in MVP voting 9 times and Ripken only 4?
by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Since
- Babe Ruth
- Honus Wagner (Career 150 OPS+ doesn't seem that impressive until you see what the other shortstops 30 years ahead of him and behind him did; might be twice as good as the second best shortstop ever)
- Ted Williams
- Willie Mays
- Barry Bonds
- Rogers Hornsby (I don't care if he fielded like Jorge Cantu and made Albert Belle look like Mother Teresa, doing what he did at 2B puts him up here)
- Stan Musial
- Mickey Mantle
- Ty Cobb
- Lou Gehrig
by Brickhaus on Dec 18, 2006 3:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Also
by Brickhaus on Dec 18, 2006 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no negro leaguers ...
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
isn't that...
by Mean Dean on Dec 18, 2006 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
re:
Regarding Rankings, how do you do it? How do you compare Rickey Henderson's stats to "Cool Papa Bell could hit a switch and be in bed before the light went out"? None of us have seen them play, unfortunately there isn't much camera footage, and their stat keeping was haphazard. The Negro League players are very hard to include in these lists.
by SmokeyJoeWood on Dec 18, 2006 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you take...
by Mean Dean on Dec 18, 2006 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe I could do the task justice
They were great -- they got screwed. Undoubtedly some of them would have been in the running for top MLB everyday player, had they been allowed to compete in the MLB. They weren't, though and even if the history is shameful, we cannot rewrite it. I am all for recognizing their achievements and their greatness, but coopting them -- making them a part of MLB's history could be considered an even greater injustice.
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mmm
making them a part of MLB's history could be considered an even greater injustice.Talk about going way beyond what's necessary to prove your point! That statement is just plain silly, and I suspect you know it.
Given that neither I, nor most of us were alive when negro leaguers were playing, it wouldn't be particularly useful or meaningful for us to compare their careers with MLB players.You probably weren't alive when a lot of these guys were playing.
Without statistics, first hand observation, or significant amounts of second hand trained, scientific (ie scouting) observation, we'd be doing nothing more than throwing some token spots to a couple of negro leaguers with the best reputations.You do have statistics. And you have dozens of books. And you have newspapers writing about these guys every day for half a century.
If you don't want to familiarize yourself with the necessary information, that's fine, but on the other hand, it would also represent giving up on the goal of identifying the best players.
by Mean Dean on Dec 18, 2006 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know ...
Your answer to the other two quotes you pulled are related:
There are stats, but they are incomplete and generally said to not be all that reliable.
I am familiar with the necessary information. I do not feel that this information is sufficient for any sort of meaningful comparison.
Feel free to disagree.
by devo on Dec 19, 2006 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
An interesting note ...
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I realize the position was different
By way of example, let's take a pretty good recent 2B, Roberto Alomar. In 1991, when he won the gold glove, he had 780 outs made in 160 games. In 1922, after the way managers played 2B had already clearly changed, Hornsby made 872 outs in 154 games, and actually had more touches than Alomar while making 15 more errors. They were also about even on double plays - 81 for Alomar and 79 for Hornsby.
I'm not saying that Hornsby was as good of a defender as Alomar (contemporary writers tended to think he was somewhat of a butcher there, if anything), but I am saying that the argument that 2B was a different position when Hornsby played there is erroneous. If I was saying that Nap Lajoie was in the top 10 (I personally think he has a good case for the top 20, although I know most disagree), then you have a point, but the point doesn't hold water for Hornsby.
by Brickhaus on Dec 18, 2006 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you sir, are correct on all points ...
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Greatest
#2. Williams
#3. Mays
#4. Cobb
#5. Bonds
#6. Wagner
#7. Musial
#8. Hornsby
#9. Mantle/Gehrig/DiMaggio (I'm lazy!)
#10. Rickey
I do believe that both A-Rod and Pujols have a chance to crack this list barring massive injury (for Pujols) or quitting baseball like a whiny baby in 2010 because they couldn't handle the pressure of playing in New York (for A-Rod.)
by Ur on Dec 18, 2006 3:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mine
Ty Cobb
Lou Gehrig
Alex Rodriguez
Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Rogers Hornsby
Hank Aaron
Willie Mays
Stan Musial
by Jihan1 on Dec 18, 2006 4:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Re:
The quality of competition, equipment, etc wasn't very good turn of the century. Honus Wagner was so drastically better than a replacement player because the replacement player sucked. Just like George Mikan would look like a schmuck if he played in the Bird/Magic era or now, it's very likely Honus wouldn't be that great in contempory baseball.
Every sports gotta start somewhere. You're not going to get off the ground immediately with the best athletes in all the world playing at a high level in a new grassroots professional league. The best baseball of all-time was played in the last half of the 20th century thru today. To put together a list that is mostly deadball players and suggest it is the best players of all-time is a crock.
by TINSTAAPP on Dec 18, 2006 7:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The only guy on the list
Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb pretty much split their careers between the dead ball era and the roaring twenties, everyone else played the bulk of their career in the 20s or later.
by devo on Dec 18, 2006 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cobb
The same could be said about Speaker, who was also regarded as a tremendous fielder, although not quite the hitter Cobb was.
by SmokeyJoeWood on Dec 18, 2006 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
To me, all-time means the greatest from their eras. Otherwise, if we view this as a "could Johann Santana strike out Ty Cobb" question, the more recent players will virtually always have the advantage, and that makes for a pretty boring list.
by Yakker on Dec 18, 2006 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: boring
by TINSTAAPP on Dec 18, 2006 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To each his own
So, let's just take the top 10 players by WARP in 2006. There's your "all-time" greats. Bo-ring.
by Yakker on Dec 19, 2006 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
also
The argument of best offensive player all time, to me, comes down to Babe and Ted, and I think Ted takes it.
Best player of all time? I'd go with Ruth (who could pitch almost as well as he could hit).
by SmokeyJoeWood on Dec 18, 2006 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure I buy it
Anecdotally, there's little to indicate that Wagner wouldn't have been a great player even today. No, there weren't modern radar guns back then, but most believe that the best pitchers of that era pitched just as fast as the best pitchers of our era (it seems that guys like Johnson, Rusie, Young, Waddell, Grove etc. all threw in the high 90's or possibly even in triple digits), although their repertoires might not have been as big. Wagner worked out just as much as any modern player, and by that measure he was ahead of the curve by about 80 years. He was thought of as the best defender of his era, and the current metrics that can relate to that time period bear out that he was a plus defender. The game is probably better now than it was then, but it's not necessarily as big of a difference as some make it out to be. Further, he was further ahead of his contemporaries (position relative) than any other player in baseball history, which has to count for something when there's a major shift in the general way the game is played every 20 years or so.
BTW, Wagner does fall 100% in the dead ball era.
by Brickhaus on Dec 19, 2006 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
one correction
by Brickhaus on Dec 19, 2006 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie Hustle
I understand he may not have hit the WARP cutoff, and sure, he's a schmuck and banned from the Hall, but any list of top 10 greatest players without his name on it seems like a mistake to me.
by Yakker on Dec 18, 2006 8:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Only if you
by Brickhaus on Dec 19, 2006 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rose
Which years were those? The 10 seasons where he had 200 or more hits (including one at age 38)? Or the 17 seasons when he made the All-Star team? Or perhaps you're thinking of the 15 seasons (9 in a row) that he hit over .300? Yes, he tailed off after age 40, but who didn't?
To answer your question, I do credit his durability. After all, we call them counting stats for a reason. They are to be counted, and the more games you play, the more chance you have to amass those gaudy totals. Rose is 10th on the Runs Created list, 5th in runs scored, and obviously tops in hits and a number of other categories.
With someone like Rose, who compiled massive numbers but did so while maintaining solid career averages (and did it all with a spark that was undeniable), there's no question to me he's one of the all-time greats.
by Yakker on Dec 19, 2006 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Real Admirable
Finally, you make a great fuss over 200-hit seasons. Tell me, given two leadoff hitters with identical .333 BA and 700 PA each, would you rather hve the guy with 220 hits, or the guy with 180? Hmm . . the guy with 220 hits has a .371 OBP, the guy with 180 hits has a .486 OBP. The guy with 40 more hits made 80 more outs. High hit totals are a novelty; they have no relationship to value whatsoever.
The great irony, of course, is that if he'd been a better player and had walked more often, he would never have had a chance at Cobb's record.
by Eric Van on Dec 20, 2006 12:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, And You Forgot the #1 Career Record . . .
Let's all fall in awe at the man who amassed 66 more hits than the great Ty Cobb . . while using up only a paltry 2300 or so more outs!
(Figuring 276 career GDP and uncounted CS for Cobb).
by Eric Van on Dec 20, 2006 1:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Me Guess
- Williams
- Ruth
- Gehrig
- Mantle
- Wagner
- Dimaggio
- Aaron
- Rose Jr.
- Foxx
- Henderson
- Young
- W.Johnson
- Spahn
- Ryan
- Koufax
- Ryan
- Seaver
- Gibson
- Marichal
- Mathewson
by ChrisRef19 on Dec 18, 2006 9:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Marc's Top 10
- The Babe
- Barry Bonds
- Ted Williams
- Willy Mays
- Mantle
- Wagner
- Cobb
- Gehrig
- Rickey
I didn't put much thought into this list, I'm pretty out of it. I'm satisfied with it, though Rickey could get kicked off and Gehrig and Cobb both could be argued to move up.
On the Mound:
- W. Johnson
- Clemens
- Maddux
- Seaver
- Grove
- Randy Johnson
- Spahnn
- Pedro Martinez
- Alexander
- Lefty Grove
by SenorGato88 on Dec 18, 2006 11:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The 10 Pitchers
1. Clemens
2-7. Alexander, Grove, W. Johnson, Mathewson, Maddux, Young
8. R. Johnson
9-10. Martinez, Seaver
Spahn's 11th (LeftyAce was real close), while the strongest candidates for 12th are Carlton, Palmer, and Hubbell.
Koufax is 22 to 25, just squeaking into the top 10 in peak value (0.30 or 0.35 of ERA behind Pedro, Grove, and Maddux) and way down the list in career value.
Nolan Ryan (whom someone had 4th and 6th)? Hard to get him into the top 50 with a lifetime record of 324-292 and an ERA+ peak that's not close to top 100.
by Eric Van on Dec 20, 2006 1:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ryan and Koufax...
And this is coming from a guy who worshipped the two when I was a kid. I must own like 3-4 Koufax bios and looked up how he threw his curveball a million times in my life. I used to follow Ryan's Pitchers Bible like it was the real bible.
Still, both were exciting and nasty, but don't merit the hype they have.
Koufax's peak was really 5 years, and he did it during the greatest modern pitching era, in the greatest modern pitchers park. Not to mention he had a K zone that could be in between a guys neck and shoulders.
Pedro pitched in the greatest hitters era ever in one of the best hitters parks in the hitters league. Yet his best season, whether 1999 or 2000 destroys Koufax's.
Ryan just didn't have the control, and he gave up alot of unearned runs probably do to his control. For someone who dominated so much his WHIP is not elite, and its because he put way too many guys on base for free.
Their modern contemperaries (sp?) are Pedro and Clemens. Both Clemens and Pedro are far better pitchers.
by SenorGato88 on Dec 20, 2006 9:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

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