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HELP!!! -- The greatest players of all-time

Hey guys. I'm visiting from AN.

I'm putting together a list of the greatest players of all-time and as one step in the process, I'm enlisting fan support.

As members of the sportsblog community (that aren't Angels fans), you are probably smarter than most, so help me out.

Click here to see the nominees and vote on your own Top 10.

Thanks

0 recs  |  Comment 63 comments

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Type-o
Somehow you spelled Jimmie Foxx's name "Cal Ripken, Jr"

by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 12:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Double X's years in Boston
hurt him. His career value was relatively low (compared to the other guys in the running).

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 12:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Foxx belongs top 20.
1000 OPS even with a few rough years!!!

Total gamer and seriously love that he pitched his last year in the league.

by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 1:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No doubting Foxx's greatness ...
but other than Ripken (who was not very close to not making it), who would you have dropped? Foxx did not beat anyone in the top 20 in any one of the 3 categories. Based on WARP3 (as the first round was), there is no possible one could argue Foxx as being in the top 20.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

in what category
is Ripken better than Fox?  It's inconcievable.

You are too much a slave to WARP3.

Your options are laughable, sorry.

Including Ripken and not Foxx or Dimaggio invalidates the entire thing.

by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Foxx's years in Boston?
You mean when he finished in the top 7 of MVP voting three years in row?  Ripken finished in the top 7 of MVP voting 3 years IN HIS CAREER.
  •  Or was it that he only averaged 37 homers per full season (more than Ripken ever hit in one year)
  •  Or was it that he only hit .320 over those 6 years (Ripken hit over .320 in one full season in his career, and had a .280 lifetime average)
  •  Or was it Foxx's .420 OBP?  Ripken's lifetime was .340 with a career high of .375
  •  Foxx's Slugging during that time?  over .600.  Ripken's career high was .566
  •  Foxx walked 19% of the time and Kd 17%.  Ripken walked less than 10% of the time and Kd 11%
Foxx was LIGHTYEARS ahead of Ripken in every facet of the game.  Except for one.  Ripken was a swell guy who played every day, while Foxx was a drunk

by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously he is among the least
deserving players to be in the HOF.

His numbers are horrible on average and his game streak was at the deteriment of his team.

He is the all-time leader in GIDP's.
HE does have a sub 280 BA.
He does have a sub 800 OPS.

by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well then, feel free not to vote for him ...
I think it's easy for us to forget how great he was early in his career and, of course, his 1991 season was simply ridiculous for a shortstop of that era.

After 1991 he trailed off and was simply a good to very good player the rest of his career, but that added ten seasons of goodness on top of ten seasons of greatness. He excelled in all three categories -- total career value, peak and average.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1991 was good year
But in his best year he was worse than FOXX's carrer averages.

He never broke 900 OPS other than that in a full season.

Ripken should not be in the HOF and discussing him as a top 20 player is crazy.

by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ripken...
... is absolutely a HOFer. I agree hes definately not one of the top 20 players ever, but he is certainly a HOF caliber player. He was the greatest SS of his time and one of the best overall hitters in a time when hitting was down. He won 2 MVPs and his 1991 season was a GREAT year, not just a good year.

by grozzy on Dec 18, 2006 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that is false ...
until late in his career, when, like most, he slowed down.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He was never great
and last 10 years were sub par.
SHould have moved to third.

by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 7:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

different eras, different positions
different standards for greatness.

Ripken played in a much less offense friendly era (for most of his career -- the part where he built his qualifications for greatness) than Foxx did and he played shortstop in an era where shortstops looked like Ozzie Smith and Walt Weiss.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no love for...
Joe D?

by nyybaseball99 on Dec 18, 2006 1:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

not the first complaint about him ...
his total career value was low and his peak wasn't that great either (given the top end competition). Where he excelled was in the 1540 game (10 season) average but it wasn't enough to get him past the cut.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds?
"While most of us can agree that the numbers help us understand and enjoy the game - being among the all-time greats means more than that. The greats are the guys whose swing and swagger their generation of kids was imitating. They are the guys who the World Series managers could pencil into their All-Star lineups in April. They are the guys that we will tell our kids about when we're teaching them about the history of America's pastime."
  • Swing and swagger imitation: check (and syringe imitation, too)
  • Pencil into AS lineup: check
  • Tell our kids about: check
It's a no-brainer.  He'll be the all-time HR leader, the single-season HR leader, and he'll be talked about for all baseball history!

(excuse me while I find a place to puke now)

by BobbyMac on Dec 18, 2006 1:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

like I specifically said ...
in your rankings, you can deal with Bonds as you see fit.

He clearly maded the cut based on the criteria of the first round. If you want to knock him for his transgressions, please do so by ranking your top-10 and leaving him off.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My top 10
  1. Babe Ruth
  2. Ted Williams
  3. Willie Mays
  4. Mickey Mantle
  5. Rickey Henderson
  6. Lou Gehrig
  7. Jimmy Foxx
  8. Vlad Guerreo
  9. Ty Cobb
  10. Joe Dimaggio

by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 1:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'll bite
How is Vlad on there and A-Rod isn't? I'm not going to bother posting #'s, but it's not that close, especially considering position.

by jc3 on Dec 18, 2006 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Defense.
I think if Arod stays at SS as an elite defensive player he belongs. (in actuality he is in my next 5)

Pujlos needs a few more years to belong and Bonds I am sure we can all guess why I exclude him.

Vlad--
Check out his all time numbers: (I tend to over value OPS) and his is top 20 all time (16 overall). Then I start looking at defense and Speed and of top 20 guys he looks in top 10.

Remove: the Roid guys McGwire, Bonds, the DH's Frank THomas and the Colorado stats from Helton and he is 12th in all time OPS.

You can argue against me but I do not think it is insane to include him.

by novaoakland on Dec 18, 2006 7:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

vlad top ten?
Ah now that is funny.

by Josh on Dec 18, 2006 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The only current players who should be discussed
  1.  Bonds
  2.  Arod
  3.  Pujols
Pujols hasn't been around long enough to truly warrant the discussion, but he's absolutely going to be a lock for top 20, and probabably warrant top 5 discussion.

by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 1:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At the pace he has going
it will take Pujols 12 years to crack the top 20,  15 to crack the top 10 and 17 to crack the top 5.

Of course, it's entirely possible that we have not yet seen Pujol's best seasons yet and those dates could come sooner.

I-Rod is pretty close to belonging in the discussion too. He was pretty close to getting an HM.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

please
drop your religious adherrence to WARP3 exclusively.

by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 2:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not religiously adhering to WARP3
I'm using it to qualify guys for nomination.

I'm perfectly comfortable saying that if a guy wasn't in the top 20 in WARP3 he doesn't belong in the top 10. Foxx put up great offensive numbers, but he did it in a great offensive era. His contributions were less valuable to the A's and Red Sox than Ripken's were to the Orioles.

Do you have any disagreements with the nominees other than Foxx and Ripken? If not, I would say that the methodology worked pretty dang well.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No
There were many exlcuded, and many who should have been included.

But it's pointless.  It's too late.  You've made your top 20 picks and have said that those are the 20 and they aren't up for debate, so what's the point debating them.

If Ripken were more valuable to the Orioles than Foxx was to the As or Sox then why did Foxx finish in the top 15 in MVP voting 9 times and Ripken only 4?

by Galt on Dec 18, 2006 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Since
I'm way too lazy to register on AN, I'll post here:
  1. Babe Ruth
  2. Honus Wagner (Career 150 OPS+ doesn't seem that impressive until you see what the other shortstops 30 years ahead of him and behind him did; might be twice as good as the second best shortstop ever)
  3. Ted Williams
  4. Willie Mays
  5. Barry Bonds
  6. Rogers Hornsby (I don't care if he fielded like Jorge Cantu and made Albert Belle look like Mother Teresa, doing what he did at 2B puts him up here)
  7. Stan Musial
  8. Mickey Mantle
  9. Ty Cobb
  10. Lou Gehrig

by Brickhaus on Dec 18, 2006 3:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Also
I'm not sure whether this includes Negro Leaguers or not; if it does, feel free to deposit Josh Gibson at #8 and move the other two down a spot.

by Brickhaus on Dec 18, 2006 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Err #9
between Mantle and Cobb.

by Brickhaus on Dec 18, 2006 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

isn't that...
... always the way?  And yet, that "day" hasn't seemed to come around very often for them in the past 100 years or so.
and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Dec 18, 2006 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
To MLB's credit, they've done an awful lot in the past few years to recognize the NLs.  

Regarding Rankings, how do you do it?  How do you compare Rickey Henderson's stats to "Cool Papa Bell could hit a switch and be in bed before the light went out"?  None of us have seen them play, unfortunately there isn't much camera footage, and their stat keeping was haphazard.  The Negro League players are very hard to include in these lists.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Dec 18, 2006 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you take...
... the stats you have, and you try to figure out what they mean as best you can.  (Just as you should be doing for pre-1947 MLB stats -- you should be doing the best you can to adjust for the fact that they weren't facing Negro Leaguers, as nebulous a task as that is.)  And in addition to stats, you bring in subjective evidence such as the opinions of contemporaries and experts.  Statistics are just one form of evidence about a player's abiltiies.
and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Dec 18, 2006 6:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't believe I could do the task justice
I don't doubt any of their greatness -- but there is really no basis for comparison, it would just be comparing apples to oranges. Given that neither I, nor most of us were alive when negro leaguers were playing, it wouldn't be particularly useful or meaningful for us to compare their careers with MLB players. Without statistics, first hand observation, or significant amounts of second hand trained, scientific (ie scouting) observation, we'd be doing nothing more than throwing some token spots to a couple of negro leaguers with the best reputations.

They were great -- they got screwed. Undoubtedly some of them would have been in the running for top MLB everyday player, had they been allowed to compete in the MLB. They weren't, though and even if the history is shameful, we cannot rewrite it. I am all for recognizing their achievements and their greatness, but coopting them -- making them a part of MLB's history could be considered an even greater injustice.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 7:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mmm
making them a part of MLB's history could be considered an even greater injustice.
Talk about going way beyond what's necessary to prove your point!  That statement is just plain silly, and I suspect you know it.
Given that neither I, nor most of us were alive when negro leaguers were playing, it wouldn't be particularly useful or meaningful for us to compare their careers with MLB players.
You probably weren't alive when a lot of these guys were playing.
Without statistics, first hand observation, or significant amounts of second hand trained, scientific (ie scouting) observation, we'd be doing nothing more than throwing some token spots to a couple of negro leaguers with the best reputations.
You do have statistics.  And you have dozens of books.  And you have newspapers writing about these guys every day for half a century.

If you don't want to familiarize yourself with the necessary information, that's fine, but on the other hand, it would also represent giving up on the goal of identifying the best players.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Dec 18, 2006 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know ...
I know people who if, after having been excluded for their entire career, the group that excluded them more or less got over whatever its hang-ups were and realized how great they were and decided to claim their achievements for its own.

Your answer to the other two quotes you pulled are related:
There are stats, but they are incomplete and generally said to not be all that reliable.

I am familiar with the necessary information. I do not feel that this information is sufficient for any sort of meaningful comparison.

Feel free to disagree.

by devo on Dec 19, 2006 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

An interesting note ...
second base in the days of Hornsby and Collins was not the second base we know today. Given the proclivity to bunt and take half swings, the corner positions were more important defensively than SS/2b. 2b, especially, was where teams would stash their least accomplished defensive infielder to avoid overexposing him.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I realize the position was different
But it wasn't as different as you're making it out to be.  It's not as if Hornsby played in the dead-ball era, when there WERE a lot more bunts and a lot fewer double plays.  Sure, over the first 6 or 7 years of his career, 2B was where teams stashed the weak defenders, but if you look, you'll notice that Hornsby primarily played 3B and SS those seasons.  When the defensive paradigm shifted around 1921, he was moved to second base, which suddenly became a much more valuable position.  

By way of example, let's take a pretty good recent 2B, Roberto Alomar.  In 1991, when he won the gold glove, he had 780 outs made in 160 games.  In 1922, after the way managers played 2B had already clearly changed, Hornsby made 872 outs in 154 games, and actually had more touches than Alomar while making 15 more errors.  They were also about even on double plays - 81 for Alomar and 79 for Hornsby.  

I'm not saying that Hornsby was as good of a defender as Alomar (contemporary writers tended to think he was somewhat of a butcher there, if anything), but I am saying that the argument that 2B was a different position when Hornsby played there is erroneous.  If I was saying that Nap Lajoie was in the top 10 (I personally think he has a good case for the top 20, although I know most disagree), then you have a point, but the point doesn't hold water for Hornsby.

by Brickhaus on Dec 18, 2006 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you sir, are correct on all points ...
I had it in my mind that his career started about five years before it did and did not realize that he did not spend those early years at second base.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Greatest
#1. Ruth
#2. Williams
#3. Mays
#4. Cobb
#5. Bonds
#6. Wagner
#7. Musial
#8. Hornsby
#9. Mantle/Gehrig/DiMaggio (I'm lazy!)
#10. Rickey

I do believe that both A-Rod and Pujols have a chance to crack this list barring massive injury (for Pujols) or quitting baseball like a whiny baby in 2010 because they couldn't handle the pressure of playing in New York (for A-Rod.)

by Ur on Dec 18, 2006 3:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Mine
Honus Wagner
Ty Cobb
Lou Gehrig
Alex Rodriguez
Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Rogers Hornsby
Hank Aaron
Willie Mays
Stan Musial

by Jihan1 on Dec 18, 2006 4:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re:
Honestly, this may be an unpopular opinion, but other than Babe Ruth and Ted Williams I don't think any pre-integration players really belong in the discussion of greatest players of all-time. I'm believe this especially for pre-1920s players.

The quality of competition, equipment, etc wasn't very good turn of the century. Honus Wagner was so drastically better than a replacement player because the replacement player sucked. Just like George Mikan would look like a schmuck if he played in the Bird/Magic era or now, it's very likely Honus wouldn't be that great in contempory baseball.

Every sports gotta start somewhere. You're not going to get off the ground immediately with the best athletes in all the world playing at a high level in a new grassroots professional league. The best baseball of all-time was played in the last half of the 20th century thru today. To put together a list that is mostly deadball players and suggest it is the best players of all-time is a crock.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." - Henny Youngman

by TINSTAAPP on Dec 18, 2006 7:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The only guy on the list
who was a true deadballer was Nap Lajoie.

Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb pretty much split their careers between the dead ball era and the roaring twenties, everyone else played the bulk of their career in the 20s or later.

by devo on Dec 18, 2006 7:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cobb
Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the discussion. The guy was an absolute beast, deadball or not.  Look at his numbers.

The same could be said about Speaker, who was also regarded as a tremendous fielder, although not quite the hitter Cobb was.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Dec 18, 2006 8:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree
Not to get in the middle of this, but I would disagree with a position that penalizes a player for excelling against inferior competition, when that was the only option available to him.  That is, not only did Cobb beat the pants off everyone whom he played against (whom we now might call "lousy"), but we also do not know how he would have fared against better competition.  Perhaps, he would have risen to the challenge.

To me, all-time means the greatest from their eras.  Otherwise, if we view this as a "could Johann Santana strike out Ty Cobb" question, the more recent players will virtually always have the advantage, and that makes for a pretty boring list.

by Yakker on Dec 18, 2006 9:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: boring
To me cowtowing to guys who played against inferior competition back in the first quarter of the 20th century makes for a boring list.
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." - Henny Youngman

by TINSTAAPP on Dec 18, 2006 9:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To each his own
But where do you draw the line on "inferior competition?"  The average player in the 1960s was far better than the average player in the 1920s.  But the average player in the 1990s was far better than either, and the state of play today is probably far better than at any other time in history.

So, let's just take the top 10 players by WARP in 2006.  There's your "all-time" greats.  Bo-ring.

by Yakker on Dec 19, 2006 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also
You call Ted Williams a pre-inegration player, but over hald of his career was post-integration (and he was just as dominant).

The argument of best offensive player all time, to me, comes down to Babe and Ted, and I think Ted takes it.

Best player of all time?  I'd go with Ruth (who could pitch almost as well as he could hit).

by SmokeyJoeWood on Dec 18, 2006 8:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure I buy it
While the total pool of prospective players was smaller due to a smaller population overall, no foreign players (between around 1900 and 1930 anyway; lots of Europeans played in the 1800's), no dark-skinned people and no minor league systems (which made finding people a bit more of a crapshoot), the pool then also had some advantages over the 50's and later.  First, ALL of the best athletes were playing baseball back then, because it was the only sport where an athlete could actually make money for playing full time until the mid-to-late 40's.  Second, since there were many fewer teams, there were many less guys on the rosters who weren't major league material.  Third, since the rotations were smaller and bullpen use was more sparse, hitters faced only the best pitchers around and couldn't pad stats against the Russ Ortizes of the world.  

Anecdotally, there's little to indicate that Wagner wouldn't have been a great player even today.  No, there weren't modern radar guns back then, but most believe that the best pitchers of that era pitched just as fast as the best pitchers of our era (it seems that guys like Johnson, Rusie, Young, Waddell, Grove etc. all threw in the high 90's or possibly even in triple digits), although their repertoires might not have been as big.  Wagner worked out just as much as any modern player, and by that measure he was ahead of the curve by about 80 years.  He was thought of as the best defender of his era, and the current metrics that can relate to that time period bear out that he was a plus defender.  The game is probably better now than it was then, but it's not necessarily as big of a difference as some make it out to be.  Further, he was further ahead of his contemporaries (position relative) than any other player in baseball history, which has to count for something when there's a major shift in the general way the game is played every 20 years or so.

BTW, Wagner does fall 100% in the dead ball era.

by Brickhaus on Dec 19, 2006 4:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

one correction
I meant to say "one of the best defenders", not "the best defender".  If you made the argument back then, there would probably be a lot of debate between Wagner and Tinker.

by Brickhaus on Dec 19, 2006 4:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Charlie Hustle
I can't believe no one has mentioned Pete Rose.  

I understand he may not have hit the WARP cutoff, and sure, he's a schmuck and banned from the Hall, but any list of top 10 greatest players without his name on it seems like a mistake to me.

by Yakker on Dec 18, 2006 8:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Only if you
really give a lot of weight to long careers.  About half of his career he was average or worse, and he was almost never the best player at his position at any point in his career.  A decent comp to Rose would be as if Rafael Palmeiro had played for another 7 or 8 years and racked up huge totals.  I can't see someone as being an all-time great if he was never that great compared to his contemporaries.

by Brickhaus on Dec 19, 2006 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rose
"About half of his career he was average or worse..."

Which years were those?  The 10 seasons where he had 200 or more hits (including one at age 38)?  Or the 17 seasons when he made the All-Star team?  Or perhaps you're thinking of the 15 seasons (9 in a row) that he hit over .300?  Yes, he tailed off after age 40, but who didn't?

To answer your question, I do credit his durability.  After all, we call them counting stats for a reason.  They are to be counted, and the more games you play, the more chance you have to amass those gaudy totals.  Rose is 10th on the Runs Created list, 5th in runs scored, and obviously tops in hits and a number of other categories.

With someone like Rose, who compiled massive numbers but did so while maintaining solid career averages (and did it all with a spark that was undeniable), there's no question to me he's one of the all-time greats.

by Yakker on Dec 19, 2006 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Real Admirable
Pete Rose declined to the point where he was the worst player in MLB at his position -- and then kept on playing for years in pursuit of various all-time records.  He accomplished this by getting himself named as manager of awful teams and writing himself in the lineup card at the expense of better, younger, players whose career he thus adversely affected.  Oh, yeah, and he was betting on the games, too.  What a mensch!  I'm proud to say that I despised him long before his sociopathy was revealed to the world (and, yes, he's clearly a clinical sociopath).

Finally, you make a great fuss over 200-hit seasons.  Tell me, given two leadoff hitters with identical .333 BA and 700 PA each, would you rather hve the guy with 220 hits, or the guy with 180?  Hmm . . the guy with 220 hits has a .371 OBP, the guy with 180 hits has a .486 OBP.  The guy with 40 more hits made 80 more outs.  High hit totals are a novelty; they have no relationship to value whatsoever.

The great irony, of course, is that if he'd been a better player and had walked more often, he would never have had a chance at Cobb's record.

by Eric Van on Dec 20, 2006 12:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, And You Forgot the #1 Career Record . . .
10328 outs made.  Of all the records he holds, this is the one where he has the largest lead, the one that's most unassailable, the one that just absolutely boggles the mind.

Let's all fall in awe at the man who amassed 66 more hits than the great Ty Cobb . . while using up only a paltry 2300 or so more outs!  

(Figuring 276 career GDP and uncounted CS for Cobb).

by Eric Van on Dec 20, 2006 1:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Me Guess
Field
  1. Williams
  2. Ruth
  3. Gehrig
  4. Mantle
  5. Wagner
  6. Dimaggio
  7. Aaron
  8. Rose Jr.
  9. Foxx
  10. Henderson
Mound
  1. Young
  2. W.Johnson
  3. Spahn
  4. Ryan
  5. Koufax
  6. Ryan
  7. Seaver
  8. Gibson
  9. Marichal
  10. Mathewson
 

by ChrisRef19 on Dec 18, 2006 9:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Marc's Top 10
  1. The Babe
  2. Barry Bonds
  3. Ted Williams
  4. Willy Mays
  5. Mantle
  6. Wagner
  7. Cobb
  8. Gehrig
  9. Rickey
Rickey is so underrated right now. Oneof the best of all time.

I didn't put much thought into this list, I'm pretty out of it. I'm satisfied with it, though Rickey could get kicked off and Gehrig and Cobb both could be argued to move up.

On the Mound:

  1. W. Johnson
  2. Clemens
  3. Maddux
  4. Seaver
  5. Grove
  6. Randy Johnson
  7. Spahnn
  8. Pedro Martinez
  9. Alexander
  10. Lefty Grove

by SenorGato88 on Dec 18, 2006 11:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The 10 Pitchers
It's really clear when you look at the numbers.  If you look at career W/L (career value) and ERA+ of best seasons (peak value), you find that HOF selection depends on career + peak value in a nifty 2 : 1 weighting.  So you can run with that . . .

1. Clemens
2-7. Alexander, Grove, W. Johnson, Mathewson, Maddux, Young
8. R. Johnson
9-10. Martinez, Seaver

Spahn's 11th (LeftyAce was real close), while the strongest candidates for 12th are Carlton, Palmer, and Hubbell.

Koufax is 22 to 25, just squeaking into the top 10 in peak value (0.30 or 0.35 of ERA behind Pedro, Grove, and Maddux) and way down the list in career value.

Nolan Ryan (whom someone had 4th and 6th)? Hard to get him into the top 50 with a lifetime record of 324-292 and an ERA+ peak that's not close to top 100.  

by Eric Van on Dec 20, 2006 1:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ryan and Koufax...
two of the most overrated players of all time.

And this is coming from a guy who worshipped the two when I was a kid. I must own like 3-4 Koufax bios and looked up how he threw his curveball a million times in my life. I used to follow Ryan's Pitchers Bible like it was the real bible.

Still, both were exciting and nasty, but don't merit the hype they have.

Koufax's peak was really 5 years, and he did it during the greatest modern pitching era, in the greatest modern pitchers park. Not to mention he had a K zone that could be in between a guys neck and shoulders.

Pedro pitched in the greatest hitters era ever in one of the best hitters parks in the hitters league. Yet his best season, whether 1999 or 2000 destroys Koufax's.

Ryan just didn't have the control, and he gave up alot of unearned runs probably do to his control. For someone who dominated so much his WHIP is not elite, and its because he put way too many guys on base for free.

Their modern contemperaries (sp?) are Pedro and Clemens. Both Clemens and Pedro are far better pitchers.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 20, 2006 9:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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