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The best GM in baseball

Tiny by jrfelix on

In my opinion it's Larry Beinfest, but this isn't about me, and besides, my opinion might be just a little skewed, considering I LOVE THE FLORIDA MARLINS.

Anyway, there are 32 GMs, and only 10 slots in the poll, so I'm going to eliminate a few fringe candidates right here.

Walt Jocketty's Cardinals may have just won the World Series, but the man still traded Dan Haren (and Kiko Calero and Daric Barton) for Mark Mulder. Atrocious. He also paid good money for ex-Marlins Juan Encarnacion and Braden Looper, when any bleacher bum in our stadium could tell you that they $%&#ing suck.

Omar Minaya only knows how to do one thing: spend the Mets money. Granted, he's done it fairly well (Delgado, Pedro, Beltran) but I don't think he knows how to do anything else. The man set the Expos/Nats back five years by trading Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Philips for half a year of Bartolo Colon. What a jerk.

Terry Ryan made one ENORMOUS trade, I'll give him that. A.J. Pierzynski for Francisco Liriano, Joe Nathan, AND Boof Bonser might be the most one-sided deal of all-time. But other than that, what has he done? The Twins are a product of an amazing farm system. Meanwhile, Ryan has done little to augment his team's stellar young talent, adding scorching bats such as Luis Castillo, Rondell White, Nick Punto, Shannon Stewart...you get the picture. I refuse to include him in the poll.

Ned Colletti just gave Juan Pierre $45 million. I'll repeat that. Ned Colletti just gave Juan Pierre FORTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS. Enough said.

Brian Sabean: on the other end of that Liriano deal.

Jim Hendry. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Thanks for Dontrelle Willis!

Josh Byrnes almost made the cut, and then I remembered he let the Marlins have Dan Uggla for $50,000.

Bill Stoneman is just all over the place, Tim Purpura is just a punk, and I just don't like Doug Melvin. Maybe it's the moustache.

And that leaves us with our field of ten! I think the top contenders are Beinfest (obvious), Billy Beane (even more obvious), and Schuerholz (won 79 straight division titles...but only one WS. nyah, nyah braves fans), with Epstein and Cashman sure to draw a lot of votes thanks to know-nothing Red Sox and Yankees fans. Let the voting begin! UPDATE: Actually, Doug Melvin is probably more valuable than Kevin Towers. I'm still not putting Melvin on the list, so I'm just going to change the spot to "OTHER", but should you vote that way, I DEMAND an explanation.

Poll
Who is the best GM in baseball?
Larry Beinfest
7 votes
Billy Beane
82 votes
John Schuerholz
58 votes
J.P. Ricciardi
10 votes
Theo Epstein
10 votes
Brian Cashman
9 votes
Kevin Towers
6 votes
Dave Dombrowski
26 votes
Mark Shapiro
25 votes
Ken Williams
8 votes

241 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 112 comments

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Wow
To me, Terry Ryan is a top 3 GM, along with Billy Beane and John Schuerholz, and those three are the top tier of guys who would be my first choice if i started a team.  

You say "The Twins are a product of an amazing farm system" and then write off Ryan like he had nothing to do with it.  To me, what the Twins and A's have been able to do is remarkable considering their bastard owner's unwillingness to spend money.  Somehow, someway, they continue to put winning teams on the field.  

I've met and spoken with Mr Ryan at length, and while we are on pretty opposite ends of the spectrum on a lot of issues, his results are undeniable, and to dismiss him like you did up top I think is foolhearty.  

by Jgaztambide on Nov 30, 2006 8:58 PM EST   0 recs

I completely understand the Beinfest...
choice. Last years purge of the Red Sox was so ridiculous you can't help but be impressed.

My choice has to be Terry Ryan. Guy is sick as far as keeping the payroll low, and the farm system strong. Amazing at that.

After that I have to go with Beane. While all the shine from that book alot of people think he wrote has worn off, no GM is better at finding the bargain.

And one thing I will always respect from Beane is the balls the guy has. He has a complete and absolute confidence in everyone one of his moves, and really has not let the fan base or anything like that dictate his moves.

When you have a GM like Jim Hendry, it's quite possibly the most commendable things to see in a GM.

It's nice to see a GM with a plan. Only problem I really have is that, while I agree with the premise Beane works with, I like Ryan and Beinfest's use of the farm system and/or young players a little more.

After them I like Schuerolz, but because of the Braves Butt Boy Bill Shanks I just can't look at that orginization the right way.

A perfect GM would blend Ryan's farm system saavy with Beane's will and drive.

It's amazing to watch a GM like Beane and Beinfest adjust year after year. It's amazing to see a GM like Terry Ryan keep the farm system chugging talent.

Pretty soon Shapiro and even the Brewers GM (beyond the Estrada trade) could be on this list soon. I am mighty impressed by Shapiro, he's built a young and exciting team. And when Adam Miller and Chuck come up, they finally get the pitching they need.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 12:07 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Terry Ryan
If the Twins are the product of an "amazing farm system," how can you fail to give Terry Ryan credit for how well the team has done recently?  Isn't he directly responsible for the farm system?  

In addition to the Nathan-Liriano-Bonser trade you mention (which I'm guessing you think is the sole reason the Twins are any good), Ryan has drafted Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Michael Cuddyer, the rest of the Twins' amazing bullpen (except Joe Nathan), as well as one of the top pitching prospects in the league (Garza), and several other potential ML caliber starting pitchers (Slowey, Perkins, Baker, etc.).  I'll admit that he hasn't made the greatest free agent signings, but it is often difficult to make an impact FA move when you have only $2 - $5 million total to spend on free agents in a typical year.

I challenge any one of the GMs you listed above to get so much out of so little, particularly GMs of high payroll teams, like Cashman, Epstein, Williams, etc.  Of course, if you don't want to include Ryan on your list because he pilfered Johan Santana from your beloved Marlins for Jared Camp, I can respect that.  

by MauerPower on Nov 30, 2006 8:59 PM EST   0 recs

Don't forget
He got Santana as a rule 5.  Not including Ryan in the top ten is absolutely rediculous.

by joeywyen on Nov 30, 2006 9:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Don't forget
Ortiz for Dave Hollins. Milton for Sliva and Punto Sliva out preformed Milton for the rest time he was with the Phillies. TR is one of best at putting together good drafts.
1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Nov 30, 2006 9:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

What?
I dont know how you could say that about Omar Minya.  He is a great GM. But in addition you put up Brian Cashman and Theo Epstein. Everyone has opinions about deals and FA. But Common thats just rediclous.
70% of the earth's surface is covered by water. The rest is covered by Endy Chavez.

by Metty5 on Nov 30, 2006 9:00 PM EST   0 recs

What?
I dont know how you could say that about Omar Minya.  He is a great GM. But in addition you put up Brian Cashman and Theo Epstein. Everyone has opinions about deals and FA. But Common thats just rediclous.
70% of the earth's surface is covered by water. The rest is covered by Endy Chavez.

by Metty5 on Nov 30, 2006 9:00 PM EST   0 recs

seriously
if you're gonna kill omar for one move he made like 5 years ago how about we boot theo the hell off this list...yeah he traded the reigning NL rookie of the year who plays the same position currently occupied by joey cora up in boston and the only pitcher to throw a no-hitter in the last 2 years who by the way is a rookie also...in the same move! if thats not a damning move then i don't know what is

as far as omar, the perception of him (especially on this site) is that he does nothing but mindlessly spend...yet for some reason cashman is on the list, odd...but then how do you explain vital VITAL players to the '06 mets like endy chavez, darren oliver (who he was ridiculed on this site for acquiring), duaner sanchez, chad bradford, jose valentin, PAUL LODUCA...but yeah he doesn't know anything unless hes signing bigtime free agents right?

by robcast23 on Nov 30, 2006 9:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Because...
Cashman has only had control recently, and considering that their the Yankees his moves have been shrewd.

Abreu for a bucket of balls with potential?

Building up the farm system with 3 straight decent to very good drafts?

Resisting to overspend on this years crappy FA market.

I really think Cashman on another team would be one of the best in the game. Theres a reason why he became the Yankees GM so young, the man is smart.

He was one of the men behind the scenes in the late 80's and early 90's overseeing the rebuilding of what would become a great dynasty.

Seriously, Cashman is kind of an unknown as a GM, but I have alot of faith that if he somehow ended up with the Cubs I'd feel pretty secure.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 12:11 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Thinking logically....
I've never thought Cashman was the man behind guys like Pavano, Irabu, and David Wright.

I mean I can't prove it, but I think he's much smarter than that. Plus, Irabu was "George's Golden Boy" or something.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 12:15 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Pavano and Wright
He's admitted that those were his signings or that he agreed with them.

Kevin Brown too.

by OneHitWonder on Dec 1, 2006 9:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re Cashman
Giving 25 million to Igawa, IF that was his idea, that was pretty stupid for a #4 pitcher. However, i'm inclined to believe it wasn't

by wir963 on Dec 1, 2006 9:19 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Um...
25 million to his team.

Posting this year has been ridiculous, but if you think these teams don't weigh the risks in these situations you're crazy.

The Japanese market is largely untapped, but the Yankees and Seattle have already seen the kind of money and growing fan base these guys can bring.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 11:41 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Wrong Wright
I think you meant Jared.
"Dying is no big deal. The least of us will manage that. Living is the trick." - Red Smith

by finman on Dec 1, 2006 2:01 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

And don't forget Omar ...
made that great trade, Kazmir for that big hitter (of batsmen) Zambrano.
Yoda

by Yoda on Dec 1, 2006 1:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

um
no he didn't.
70% of the earth's surface is covered by water. The rest is covered by Endy Chavez.

by Metty5 on Dec 1, 2006 1:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

At this point
Hasn't that trade been attributed to every GM in baseball, besides Billy Beane?
"What you're forgetting is that you need at least three DWIs before you're considered a 'dominant' drunk driver." (limozeen)

by drjayphd on Dec 1, 2006 2:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

it was
Jim Duquette. Or how ever u spell his godforsaken name. After phillups left.
70% of the earth's surface is covered by water. The rest is covered by Endy Chavez.

by Metty5 on Dec 1, 2006 2:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ryan or JS
I really don't see anyone better.

by Havok1517 on Nov 30, 2006 9:05 PM EST   0 recs

agreed
with a nod to beane for keeping the a's in the playoff hunt 8 years in a row despite MASSIVE turnover.

shuerholtz is #1 though

"Well I believe in the soul..."

by D O on Nov 30, 2006 9:29 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

you cant eliminate
a gm because he made a handful of bad trades and FA signings, every single GM in the history of the game has made bad moves

by nyybaseball99 on Nov 30, 2006 9:06 PM EST   0 recs

Sure I can
It's my list. To me, the Minaya and Jocketty trades I referenced are such colossal mistakes as to be unforgivable. How can you give up your farm system for half a year of Bartolo Colon, when your team is barely in the playoff race to begin with, Omar Minaya? And how can you possibly not notice the decline of Mulder's ability, and give away a BETTER and MUCH CHEAPER starter in the same deal? These are such moronic oversights that these men cannot possibly be the best GM in baseball.

As for Terry Ryan...look I could be wrong. Maybe he is directly responsible for the Twins farm system...and maybe he isnt. Maybe he has amazing scouts, or is massively lucky. In any event, I refuse to give him all the credit, and yes, I am mad that the Twins stole Johan Santana.

We have, I fear, confused power with greatness.

by jrfelix on Nov 30, 2006 9:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Disagree
Here's the thing: even if the Scouts are the ones who are finding these players, they are Ryan's scouts.  The organizational philosophy is because of him.  What he looks for in his employees is because of him.  Your employees make you look good or bad, for better or for worse, that's what being a boss is all about.  

This is the reason that most GM's have "Director of Baseball Operations" as their official title: anything relating to the baseball side of things is their responsibility, directly or indirectly.  

by Jgaztambide on Nov 30, 2006 9:42 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

so then why aren't you killing theo?
traded hanley and anibal for a mediocre at best josh beckett

hes about to trade the best hitter in baseball over the last decade

blew it big time with the edgar renteria/coco crisp/matt clement signings

wouldn't offer johnny damon more than $40mil allowing him to have a very big year with the yankees but now gives jd drew $75mil like its nothing

gave away clay meredith for NOTHING

and imagine if matsuzaka is a bust? wow that'd be one of the alltime blunders...

come on, i know its your list but at least be consistent

by robcast23 on Nov 30, 2006 10:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

ok...
and what about the rest of those disasters?

by robcast23 on Nov 30, 2006 11:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

'kay.
"hes about to trade the best hitter in baseball over the last decade"

He's been trying to trade the guy every season.  A bad GM would've already pulled the trigger on Manuel Aristides.

"blew it big time with the edgar renteria/coco crisp/matt clement signings"

First off, Crisp came over in a trade.  Covelli Loyce, David Riske, and Josh Bard for Andy Marte, Guillermo Mota, and Kelly Shoppach.  Shoppach was blocked, Mota's arm had been reduced to a nub, and maybe he saw something in Marte that we haven't (but Schuerholz did?).  Coco didn't progress as expected, but he needed a CF.  Think Damon and his noodle arm were coming back?

"wouldn't offer johnny damon more than $40mil allowing him to have a very big year with the yankees but now gives jd drew $75mil like its nothing"

Where are you getting the $75M figure?  The Herald?  If he replaces Coco instead of Manny, that's fine by me.  (Psst: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Damon was being offered $44M/4.  $11M/year last year is pretty much $15M/year in this offseason.)

"gave away clay meredith for NOTHING"

Bard couldn't catch the knuckler.  Meredith sucked in his time with the Mothership.  Can't knock the hustle there.

"and imagine if matsuzaka is a bust? wow that'd be one of the alltime blunders..."

Or he might not be.  If he is, then yeah, it's a blunder, but you'd also have to kill Cashman and Minaya for also bidding absurdly high amounts.

Let's review: Two of his blunders are things that haven't happened yet.  The other three?  Necessity, not much risk, and two understandable mistakes (Clement and Renteria were targeted as good FA options).  The anti-Yanks/Sawx bias really is getting in the way.

"What you're forgetting is that you need at least three DWIs before you're considered a 'dominant' drunk driver." (limozeen)

by drjayphd on Nov 30, 2006 11:49 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

sorry
some holes in those arguments:

first a bad GM wouldn't have traded manny yet, a bad one would be constantly trying to but lucky enough for his organization would be too inept to do so...the guy put him on waivers for god sakes, don't say theo has been shrewdly keeping manny despite what he says about trades

second, looks like you and theo have something in common, lack of player research...cla meredith did not "suck" for the red sox...in fact during his rise through the boston farm system before 2006 he posted era's of 0.00, 0.00, 2.20 and 0.00 and 5.59...that 5 isn't great but on the whole definitely not the kind of arm i'd be giving up for doug mirabelli...plus he was the best RP in baseball this year, a position the sox desparately lacked, and that kind of dominance doesn't just apear out of nowhere...the sox completely missed the boat in not even realizing what they had...so yes i can actually knock theo's "hustle" on that one

as for damon, it is widely known that he WOULD have come back but all he was doing was chasing the money...and while the market this year is inflated, that has nothing to do with the fact that they wouldn't OVERspend last year but are completely willing to open the checkbooks this year as evidenced by drew and matsuzaka...and while you're right $11mil last year is equal to more this year, drew's contracts net worth is $31mil more than what they offered damon, you're saying that $31 million has nothing to do with the sox willingess to spend and everything to do with market inflation? no way

by robcast23 on Dec 1, 2006 1:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Um..
He's going to get many prospects back for Manny. I don't know how you can put a move on there that hasn't been made yet anyway.

Name one GM that hasn't made a poor signing or trade. Beinfest traded Derrek Lee for Choi and Nannini. JP Riccardi signed BJ Ryan, AJ Burnett and Corey Koskie to more money than they deserved. Cashman signed Irabu and Pavano, among many others. Towers traded Jason Bay and Oliver Perez for Brian Giles. Dombrowski went through a 119 loss season. Kenny Williams traded Carlos Lee for Podsednik. Why not target them for their bad signings like you did Epstein?

Coco Crisp wasn't a free agent signing. His extension isn't that terrible. $5,000,000 a year isn't that bad considering 2004 and 2005 and his position.

Drew has been a better player than Damon over his career, although paying him 7 million more too much.

Matzusaka isn't even signed yet and he isn't a bust yet.

by marinerjohn27 on Nov 30, 2006 11:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Have fun in the 1800's...
where RBIs and RS were actually legit stats.

Drew has more power, gets on base more, and unlike Damon isn't a highly overrated defensive OFer.

But I won't get that get in the way of teammate dependent numbers.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 1:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Johnny Damon
has had 580+ at bats for 9 straight years. Rate stats don't mean a lot if you never play.

by chaney on Dec 1, 2006 2:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Lol....
That doesn't make sense?

So you think that J.D. Drew has had a better career than Johnny Damon because he has more power and gets on base more? Um, okay.>>>

Re-read please. Then read it again. Can you even explain this logic?

It's like saying..."Yea, Drew does the stuff great baseball players do, but Johnny Damon piled up alot of countables as a player on two far better offense, therefore he's better."

Thats pretty much what you just said to me.

RBIs are a joke to judge guys on.

In 2003 Barry Bonds only had 90 RBIs, what a crappy player. Preston Wilson had 141, he's like a million times better.

His .282/.343/.537 with 141 RBIs while playing half his games at Coors Field are so much more valuable than Bonds' .341/.529/.749 but only 90 RBIS!!!

Oh wait, Barry Bonds is a top 5 player all time, and had one of the all time great seasons that year. Preston Wilson is a pretty crappy player.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 12:59 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

um
NL vs. AL

Dont forget the effect of the DH in this argument

70% of the earth's surface is covered by water. The rest is covered by Endy Chavez.

by Metty5 on Dec 1, 2006 1:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

for the record
RBI's are still the most important stat even since the 1800's...SABR nuts like the kind on this site have completely overblown stats like OBP and VORP forgetting that while yes OBP is a very good thing, RBI's are what actually win the games

last time i checked the point of the game is to score runs: EVERY SINGLE rbi leads to a run, barely 30% of the OBP lead to runs...thus RBIS > OBP

by robcast23 on Dec 1, 2006 1:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Dude....
RBIs ARE runs scored.

They are RUNS BATTED IN.

Tell me, how do you get RBIs without your teammates? Can you hit 100 HRs to get 100 RBIs by yourself?

Thinking LOGICALLY, RBIs are a teammate driven stat. How much water should that hold when analyzing players?

Hint: The answer is none.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 1:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

His logic is as follows
Who hits for more power?
Drew
Who gets on base more, thus NOT getting out more? (Bear in mind the out is the most important thing in baseball, the first person to reach 27 outs loses)
Drew gets on base more
Who is better defensively?
Drew
Who has had better batters to bat him in, so that his RS stats are inflated by players like "the greatest hitter of the last decade (Manny)" and Papi and the rest of the Sox lineup?
Damon
Who is more durable?
Damon

But look at it this way -- if Drew bats leadoff for the Red Sox, his power #s and his OBP lead to a nearly 100% chance that his precious RBI and RS stats would be far higher than Damon's over the same period of time (if given the same production from his teammates). The only thing going for Damon (outside of speed) is his durability. Make no mistake, that's very important. But if and when Drew has a full season, it will be a colossal season. And you'll be singing a different tune about his value if that happens w/ the Sox.

by mroak89 on Dec 1, 2006 6:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Missing the point
Answer the question: who's had a better career? We all acknowledge Drew is the more talented player. Sheesh...

by jc3 on Dec 1, 2006 7:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Agreed
How exactly has J.D. Drew had a better career than Damon? It seems that you guys are just looking at career OBP/SLG and determining who's had a better career. Sure, Drew's OBP/SLG is better. He's probably a more talented player. But, there is a thing called reliability, and Drew is about as unreliable as they come, while Damon is pretty damned reliable, and that counts for a lot, especially considering the money being shelled out. Damon's reliable and a player who proved that he could handle playing in Boston, two things Drew has not, yet they are willing to give him a lot more money. Very strange.

It's the argument of A.J. Burnett. Sure, he's got all of the ability in the world. But, a vast majority of people bash Riccardi for giving him that kind of contract based on unreliability due to injuries. The same rule applies to Drew IMO, except ace pitchers are more valuable than good OF, so IMO it's more excusable to take the chance on Burnett.

by jc3 on Dec 1, 2006 9:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Reliable...
is in the eye of the beholder.

Drew has played in at least 145 games in 2 of the past 3 years, and missed last year because he got hit by a fastball in the wrist.

Even then he's put up a 1.005 OPS, a .932 OPS, and a .891 OPS. The .891 OPS is one of the LOWEST of his career.

Damon meanwhile led off in one of baseballs best hitters park for baseballs best lineups. He saw alot more fastballs than anyone deserves to, and still his HIGHST OPS in his whole career is lower than Drew's career OPS.

But I'm sorry, his runs scored and RBIs in two of baseballs best lineups are alot more telling right?

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 11:47 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Reliability
So, the fact that Drew has had 500 plate appearances in 2 of his 8 full seasons makes him more reliable than a guy who's done it every year since 1996? How does that make any sense? A higher OPS in far fewer games makes him more talented, not more reliable. Sure, Drew produces more runs on a per AB basis, but he does not produce more runs on a per season basis due to lack of playing time.

I stated that Damon's had a more productive career than Drew and I stand by that. He has produced more for his teams based on the fact that he has played a ton more games, and that counts for a lot in assessing a career.

by jc3 on Dec 1, 2006 12:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ah...
you're talking career.

I'm talking more recently.

145 and 146 games are signs hes "injury prone?"

Breaking your wrist becaues a 91 MPH fastball hit you there is injury prone?

Drew could probably hit .300/.400/.500 in Boston's lineup at Fenway. Thats better production than other FAs like Lee and Soriano who got paid far more for longer.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 1:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

And yet...
He played 146 games.

And he was more productive in a lesser lineup than Damon.

BTW, you also forget that Damon, as a leadoff hitter, is garaunteed to get more plate appearances than most.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 1:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not saying Drew is more durable....
I'm saying his injury history is ridiculously overblown, and he's been far more durable in the past few years.

Plus, he's a far better hitter than Damon, even with Johnny's big bad RBIs.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 1:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

AJ Burnett
is a different argument. Stats believed Burnett's contract was stupid. Stats show that the contract WAS stupid. Stats are in support of Burnett sucking.

by mroak89 on Dec 1, 2006 6:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Huh?
When exactly has Burnett "sucked"? His ERA has been better than league average every year since 2001 except for 2003 when he pitched 4 games. Even in 2006, pitching in the AL East, his numbers were good (much better than Beckett).

Please get your facts straight. It's his durability that's the issue, not his ability. A lot like Drew, quite frankly.

by jc3 on Dec 1, 2006 7:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

My mistake
He does not suck. But a pitcher's durability is of far greater concern than a fielder's.

Additionally, I'm not comparing him to Beckett.

Thirdly, I think a gargantuan JD Drew contract would be stupid. Just like the gargantuan contract to Burnett was stupid. Except pitchers are more fragile than hitters... At least, flamethrowers like Burnett with a track history of being injured are. A hitter, it's mostly luck... Rare is the occassion when their bones or mechanics are so different from another player that they are consistently injured. Whereas pitchers vary more greatly, mechanics etc. Sucking in terms of his contract, I would still say he's not where he should be... I guess I'm just a little stunned at how greatly market value is rocketing above player value.

by mroak89 on Dec 1, 2006 10:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ok, what I should have said was...
Drew has been the better player when healthy.

by marinerjohn27 on Dec 2, 2006 4:47 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ryan
I can actually see how you can make a very good case that Ryan isn't a "top GM" because he really fails along some dimensions even though he has some excellent qualities. If I was an owner I really wouldn't be comfortable with a GM who makes so many Tony Batista-like signings.

But if guys like Ricciardi are on the list, I can't see how a reasonable case can be made that Ryan should be left off completely. The poll is useless because people are not voting on a valid pool of candidates.
It's like voting for the #1 prospect with Delmon Young left on the list while guys like Daric Barton make the cut.

by FI on Nov 30, 2006 9:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

re: Jocketty and Ryan
how can you not have Walt on there for the vote when you list guys like Cashman and Ricciardi?  sure he made a bad move with Mulder, but what about McGwire (steroids aside) for spare parts, Edmonds for Kennedy and Bottenfield, and Rolen for Polanco.  he also has a nack for picking up the right spare part type guys.  look how well Suppan has pitched for the Cardinals, Tony Womack came out of nowhere and had a good season a couple of years ago, Nunez the same thing in '05 filling in for Rolen.  i don't think you can dismiss a guy for one trade especially when you list a guy like cashman who paid pavano and wright a ton of money to be on the DL.  i simply don't see how a guy with a $200 million payroll can construct such an incomplete team and be listed as one of the top GMs.

terry ryan is right up there with billy beane with what he has done with the twins and he made perhaps the best trade of the last 25 years when he stole Nathan and Liriano from the giants for a guy they needed to get rid of.

by fewgoodcards on Nov 30, 2006 9:08 PM EST   0 recs

^I agree
Eliminating from consideration the GM of a team that has had the best record in MLB 2 of the past three years, and has made it to the World Series 2 of the past 3 - winning 1 - invalidates the entire poll.  Like his moves or not, it's about winning, and Jocketty has done that.

And how anyone can not think Terry Ryan is a great  GM is beyond me.

by BobbyMac on Nov 30, 2006 9:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Agreed with most of the above comments
This list is a joke. But, as you said, it's your list, so, whatever.

by Pawtucket Pat on Nov 30, 2006 10:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Agree with this...
and I have to admit I underrated Jocketty.

I especially underrated Jocketty now that I look at Rolen.

For all this talk of injury and blah blah blah, he had a damn good offensive season.

Edmonds will be gone soon, and that is going to be a major whole to fix though.

Still, the Cards will have Pujols for a long time and thats major. We'll see what Jocketty can do with his Bonds. Sabean never handled it, Jocketty has done a FAR better job.

by SenorGato88 on Dec 1, 2006 1:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

JS ?
ask any Royals fan you meet how great JS is..He wrecked them in his last 4 yrs there.
as for bad trades, didn't JS trade Bret Boone and Ryan Klesko for next to nothing ( ok, Mike Remlinger )? and Dye?
until the last 5-6 yrs, JS had lot of money to play around with. So if you going to eliminate Minaya based on that...and after that, he had a great farm system :)

Hey, I am a Braves fan, just not sure you got the criteria for rating right. There was a huge thread on primer a while back on this. look it up when Primer wakes up again

by Godot on Nov 30, 2006 9:15 PM EST   0 recs

Remlinger?
He traded Boone and Klesko for Veras, Sanders, and Joyner.

by aCone419 on Dec 1, 2006 12:13 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

re: Omar
He's not the best GM or anything, but what the original poster wrote is simply wrong.

In 2005, the Mets biggest weakness was their bullpen. In 2006, it was their biggest strength. The casual observer might note that Minaya spent a lot of money to bring in Billy Wagner. They'd be ignoring the fact that he built an entire bullpen around him (Sanchez, Bradford, Feliciano, Oliver and later Mota) for virtually nothing. They combined for 275 IP and a 2.70 ERA.

He turned one starter (Benson) into two better ones (Maine, El Duque) who combine to make less money. He got Endy Chavez and Jose Valentin off the scrap heap, both of whom play great defense and had career years offensively.

Minaya excelled at making small moves last year. To say he can only spend money is ignorant.

by jeck on Nov 30, 2006 9:19 PM EST   0 recs

You're looking at the trees
and missing the forest.

The Mets, for all their scrap heaping, certainly did not pick the core of their team up from any kind of scrap pile. Your logic is that Minaya excels at picking up players from the scrap heap -- history proves this to be false. He had a team (Expos) that he would have had to excel at this to make good. Since he didn't make them good, one can conjecture that perhaps his scrap move deals are solid, but nothing actually exceptional.

Imagine the Mets w/o Delgado, Beltran, Pedro, and Wagner? And others? Lo Duca ain't cheap. Keep going. He's a good GM, but the backbone of his team is money. That is undeniable -- just look at the damn payroll the Mets have.

by mroak89 on Dec 1, 2006 6:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Funny...
Wait, money is the foundation of the team, right? Well how about these undeniable facts?

Mets

Year  W   L    Payroll
'04   71  91   $96 mill
'05   83  79   $101 mill
'06   97  65   $101 mill

Now maybe I'm not so good at all of this new math, but to me that says the Mets have gained 26 wins in two years under Minaya while raising the payroll by a whopping $5 million. We have established one thing here though, people will always complain about big market teams spending no matter how they go about it, and perception often trumps reality...

by MetfanBren on Dec 1, 2006 9:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Wait a second
Your argument that the Mets aren't built on salary is based on the fact that payroll has increased by 5 mil since '04?

Isn't the payroll still $101m?

What the hell does it matter that payroll has only increased by 5 mil to 101mil?

THIS FRANCHISE USES A LOT OF MONEY. HENCE, IT IS BUILT ON PAYROLL.
Just because they've relocated where they're spending the huge $$s doesn't mean that it's NOT A HUGE SUM to spend on payroll.

Now maybe I'm not good at any math, but it seems to me that a payroll that is consistently in the top 3 or so of the MLB is built on $$. Nor am I complaining about big market teams spending $$, to be honest I don't give a rats ass about market size. I'm stating simple, overly obvious truth. And you contradict yourself -- you admit that big market teams spend, and regardless of how it goes about it, a dollar is a dollar. 26 wins in 2 years -- coincides with giving monster contracts to Beltran and Martinez and Wagner, am I right? Kudos to Minaya to relocating his money to better players, but without Beltran and Martinez and Delgado and co, for all the Endy Chavez's that you value so highly, the Mets would STILL BE A ~80-85 WIN team. Maybe a little better. Without those gargantuan salaries and superstars, the Mets are David Wright and Jose Reyes and a solid bullpen and not much else. You can't get by with that. What are you arguing? That the Mets don't have a big payroll? They do. Big payrolls = clubs built in cash. It's that simple

by mroak89 on Dec 1, 2006 9:59 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Alright...
Ok, so where's your cut-off in terms of qualifying this? Does the payroll have to be over $100 million to complain about it because it's a nice shiny number? Does $5 - $10 million really make that big of a difference? There were a bunch of teams that were within that range in 2006, so are they driven by money too? And if so, why not?

People make it sound like the Mets went on a Steinbrenner type spending spree and just blew the rest of the NL out of the water. Once again the numbers prove otherwise though...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=nym

2006 Payrolls:

  1. NY Mets - $100,901,085
  2. LA Dodgers - $99,176,950
  3. Chicago Cubs - $94,841,166
  4. Atlanta - $92,461,852
  5. Houston - $92,101,503
  6. San Francisco - $90,862,064
The Dodgers even passed the Mets during the season when they went out and got Maddux, Lugo, Baez, Marlon Anderson, Toby Hall, Elmer Dessens, and Hendrickson (some of these guys were short term acquisitions of course, but somehow they managed to make nearly $20 million in 2006, and some of them are even due raises next year). The Mets got Shawn Green, who sucks, but who's being paid mostly by ARZ. Those are the types of deals that Omar didn't have to make in season, because he found productive players who could play those roles cheaply in February, and most of them could've been had by anyone...

He also went into the playoffs with John Maine and Oliver Perez in the rotation, rather than make a panic trade for someone like Zito. That tells me that he actually does realize the value of young players..

by MetfanBren on Dec 2, 2006 8:59 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Right
All of those teams are built on money, I don't understand where your defensive complex about the Mets spending money is coming from. Every single one of those teams is a very large market, each one is built on payroll. I would say that that continues until ~80-85M, at which point teams have to start actually getting truly creative because they can't throw money at the best in the business (or even the very good in the business -- see Cubs & Soriano, Alfonso) and must bring EVERY player along like Minaya brought two or three along.

For example, look at Oakland. This is a team not built on money. They have just one truly expensive contract relative to the league (Eric Chavez, $11m/yr or so), and even he is homegrown. Now look at the Mets. They have several exorbitant contracts, none of whom are homegrown. That's the difference between being built on money and not being built on money. Of course, it's all relative, since every franchise on some level is built on money.

by mroak89 on Dec 3, 2006 10:43 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

And nor
do I believe that Ned Colletti is a good GM, so to use the Dodgers as a net is not a good thing.

by mroak89 on Dec 3, 2006 10:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ryan? O' Dowd? Melvin?
I wouldn't certainly subsitute three out of the four of Riccardi, Cashman, Epstein, and Towers for Terry Ryan, Dan O' Dowd, and Doug Melvin. Riccardi is arguably one of the worst general manger's in the game and the same goes for Josh Towers. Cashman and Epstein have resources that pretty much every other team doesn't have. They should also probably be listed as two of the ten worst general managers in the game.

by Angels and Demons on Nov 30, 2006 9:29 PM EST   0 recs

I have
been getting more down On  Riccardi the more I hear form him he makes ok moves but he sounds like a whinning punk sometimes and his draft strategy just sucks.
1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Nov 30, 2006 10:02 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Riccardi...
sounded so much better a few years ago.

But his draft strategy really does blow, and I'm just not a fan of his moves.

Great, like Hendry he paid big money to overrated players.

Not a fan.

Doug Melvin is slowly turning over a Brewers orginization, and is getting no credit for it. I don't think anyone even notices that the Brewers may actually be good, and VERY soon. That trade for David Bush is one of the biggest long term sleeper moves in baseball IMO.

by SenorGato88 on