Giradi and the joke that is Loria

by roaddog on Oct 3, 2006 11:35 PM EDT

There is something to be said for not biting the hand that feeds you, but this Loria guy is the epitome of a spoiled brat. Do multi-millionaires actually sit around kicking and screaming for 10 minutes, stick a thumb in their mouth and whine "He wasn't nice to me...WAAAA!" ?...apparently so.

I see almost zero chance that anybody on that team gives more than about 10% effort next year. Good luck Fredi. Bring your chapstick, yer gonna need it. Be amazed at 42 wins.

I hope the players all start counting the days until their service is up, the league never lets the guy off the hook and the Marlins stay put in south Florida for at least another decade and the combined win total over that span is 296. Had some respectability in the organization, but not now.

What a shaft. I hope the Royals pursue him aggressively and apologize to Buddy (pay out his contract, it'd be worth it, bad situation with him being ill but just don't think he was going to lead you there). Doubt the Cubs will because this guy is class, a winner and makes other people winners. Wherever he goes next, I'd bet money Joe ends up in Yankee Stadium after that if he wants it. Not that it will be an easy owner situation if the Boss is still around, but at least that guy respects winners and integrity.

Girardi for Manager of the Year should be a lock.

Feel free to post as desired, but rumor or conjecture on where he lands and the implications of how he can help would be cool.

Royals, with that young core look like a perfect fit to me. Ownership gives me pause, but he won 78! games under that pathetic excuse of a dungheap of a regime in Florida. 100 wins not out of the question in KC! (ok...maybe a bit rosy). I am not sure if the upper echelon of the San Fran organization has the class for him to be a good fit. Cubs are a hopelessly ineptly run organization. Maybe Washington, just don't know much about them.

Thoughts?

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Comments

the marlins combined payroll was 15 million

yet loria received a $30 million check from mlb's revenue sharing program.

i hope the guy gets tarred and feathered.

it's a bad strategy to base your lineup on the relative beauty of a man's outs rather than the rate at which he makes them.

by overlord on Oct 3, 2006 11:37 PM EDT reply actions

Re:

Is he required to dump 100% of his revenue sharing money into payroll? Why can't he use some of that money on scouting, player development, minor league operating costs, etc?

by eazyb81 on Oct 4, 2006 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions

That's all well and good

and a valid point, but your roster payroll should not be 1/2 of what you are getting from revenue sharing alone. He's also getting other income from ticket sales, TV, etc. It can be less than the 30 mil, but I think that is pretty bad. The only way it's not is if they are serious about moving and/or financing a new stadium.

by slurve on Oct 4, 2006 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions

Re:

We can sit here all day and say how terrible and horrible it is, but the bottom line is that they won 78 games with a $15 mill payroll. The name of the game is winning ballgames, and they are doing it despite a low payroll.

In addition, Florida has won two World Series championships by using the same strategy, so it's safe to say that they know what they're doing.

by eazyb81 on Oct 4, 2006 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Nobody said

they didn't know what they were doing. Nobody said they win that many games with that payroll either - including them. All I'm saying is that when you get revenue sharing, your payroll should at least be close to what you get. Other revenue is more than enough to spend on scouting, etc. Anything else is a blatant money grab.

by slurve on Oct 4, 2006 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Minnesota

did this for years. And they were always wanting the state to pay for their stadium. And I think Pohlad is the richest owner in baseball.

by pedrophile on Oct 5, 2006 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions

Little known fact here

that in Carl's current will he would have Built a Stadium with his money when he died. of course the will could be changed at any time. And i think there was a cause that the state had to waive the Estate taxes.

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Oct 5, 2006 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions

They can spend $1 million

or less on their payroll for all anyone cares, as long as they don't take money from other teams.

by rfloh @ Minor League Ball on Oct 5, 2006 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions

Rays fans learned it with Naimoli

Revenue-sharing cash goes right into the owner's pocket....

by The Rocc on Oct 4, 2006 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Marlins

Have more talent than the Royals...esp the pitching staff...no way he wins 100 in KC next year...80 would be a miracle...

by Dfarth on Oct 3, 2006 11:41 PM EDT reply actions

Re:

I thought he said Girardi could win 100 games in KC someday, not necessarily next year.

If he meant next year, that is crazy talk.

by eazyb81 on Oct 4, 2006 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm not siding

with Loria, but that was a pretty awkward situation that this all stemmed from.

Change is happening in Chicago - Baker is gone and there has been a front office shake-up. Girardi's roots in Chicago are still here. I think of the three likely candidates, Girardi has the best chance of ending up there. Bob Brenly or Lou Pinella would be likely if they don't get Girardi.

by slurve on Oct 3, 2006 11:47 PM EDT reply actions

SERIOUSLY

IM TALKING IN CAPS HERE BECAUSE I FEEL THIS STONGLY ABOUT THIS:

LORIA DOES NOT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL IN THE SLIGHTEST: HE CARES ABOUT GETTING $500 MILLION DOLLARS FOR NOTHING

ANY SPORTS WRITER WHO TRIES TO IDENTIFY THIS AS SOMETHING ELSE IS EITHER FOOLING HIMSELF OR FOOLING YOU

A GOOD, WELL-MINDED, HONEST, BASEBALL-LOVING COMMISIONER WOULD RID BASEBALL OF HIM AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, UNFORTUNATLY BUD SELIG IS NEITHER GOOD, WELL-MINDED, HONEST, OR LOVES BASEBALL.

CONGRESS SHOULD INVESTIGATE THIS, IM PRETTY SURE TR WOULD.

STEROIDS ARE NOT THE BASEBALL CRIME OF THIS GENERATION, GREEDY OWNERS WHO ENJOY TAKING CORPORATE WELFARE FROM MUNICIPALITIES THAT COULD BE SPENDING THAT CASH ON THE POOR ARE.

thanks to everyone who bothered to read my rantings.

by sanchez101 on Oct 4, 2006 12:52 AM EDT reply actions

Greedy

baseball owners have been around long, long before Loria was even born.

So has cheating, whether it is spit/doctored balls, corked bats, greenies, HGH, etc., etc.

Loria is nothing special, nor is he an extreme case.

by slurve on Oct 4, 2006 6:42 AM EDT up reply actions

sorry

but Loria has been an historically bad owner. First, Montreal, now Miami. I think Selig has some leverage over Jeff & his lackey Sampson, and I do wish Bud would begin to use it.

by Azteca on Oct 4, 2006 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions

unreadable.

it's a bad strategy to base your lineup on the relative beauty of a man's outs rather than the rate at which he makes them.

by overlord on Oct 4, 2006 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions

It's weird

Why is it that in every profession outside of owning a sports team, turning a profit is a good and admirable thing.

Yet sports fans expect their management to put back 100% (or actually 100%+) in many cases of revenues into player salaries or scouting or farm systems, or building new stadiums. It's illogical. Loria should be cheered for turning a massive profit in a small market while also fielding a very competitive team a few times a decade. The Pirates, Royals, and Rays can do neither. Why should they get a pass because they waste money on over-the-hill $3 million a year players like Reggie Sanders just so they can say that they aren't making a profit?

The Marlin system has been fantastic and should be a beacon for every other small market team. I would much rather be a fan of the Marlins than the Reds, Brewers, Blue Jays, or Rockies - perrenial "about .500" teams.

They can't logically compete every year, and so instead of trying to put on a good face and be merely mediocre every year and hope to capture lightning in a bottle, every five years or so, they retrench, cut all the payroll, load up on youngsters and start from scratch. Then they build up the team again, and in the later years of the of the cycle, still have chips to trade for established stars. The Marlins make a run and at the peak, sell off their stars and start again.

This is good from a fan's perspective as well. Because of the turnover in the roster, the fans can't really build up the animosity towards any players, while also always getting exposure to some new rookie who may be the next big thing. The fans grow with the crop of talent, and after three or four years, if it becomes evident that core isn't going to compete for a championship, they are replaced with younger, cheaper talent, and the whole process can start again.

Unlike the Royals or Pirates, who have crappy farm systems, and fill their ML roster with cheap, aging vets, wasting $3 million for guys like Meinkeiwitz and Joe Randa, the Marlins go to the bottom of the barrel knowing that for them to really have a shot at a championship, they need to catch lightning in a bottle with guys like Dontrelle, Cabrera, Hanley, Olsen, et al for hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for the first half decade of their careers. There is no other way.

And Loria seems to be the only small market team to realize this. It's not only a fantastic way to make money, it's really the only way they can seriously have a shot at competing for a WS a couple times a decade

by Galt on Oct 4, 2006 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions

is Miami a small market?

by Azteca on Oct 4, 2006 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions

No

For some reason people confuse small payroll and small market....they are not 100% synonymous.

by eazyb81 on Oct 4, 2006 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions

they're not Pittsburgh

But Miami has about 3.5 million people
Tampa Bay has about 3 million people
Boston only has about 6.5 million
San Fran/Oakland has about 7 million.

It's more than population, it's attendance and interest in the sport. Even when they won the WS, they averaged about 16,000 per game, second to last in the league. So the cry of "give us a good team and we'll go" is not necessarily true. This year it was 15,000, last in the league.

If people aren't going to go, regardless of how competitive the team is, why have a big payroll year after year? There is absolutely no reason other than to appease the critics who offer baseless complaints.

by Galt on Oct 4, 2006 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Latest Census

MSA's from the 2000 census:

Miami - 5 million people

Boston - 4.3 mill

San Fran/Oakland - 4.1 mill

Pittsburgh - 2.4 mill

Tampa - 2.3 mill

KC - 1.8 mill

Milwaukee - 1.5 mill

I fully agree with you that there is no need for the Marlins to raise the payroll, but I still disagree that Florida should be considered a "small market". They have the 6th largest TV market in the US, so the potential for great revenue is there, unlike legit small markets such as KC, Pittsburgh, and Tampa.

by eazyb81 on Oct 4, 2006 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions

people

I'd say that demographics would play an important role too, as in what percentage of those populations might actually give a darn about baseball. Miami might have a higher percentage of seniors than some of those other areas, but I would think the higher % of hispanic population should play to their favor.

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -Red Barber

by e 6 on Oct 4, 2006 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions

small market

I said "small market" is not small because of the population, it's small because of the opportunity for revenues. When 15,000 people show up to the game regardless of how good the team is, it's a small market.

You could put a cricket team in New York and it would be a small market because nobody would go.

by Galt on Oct 4, 2006 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Re:

And I am disagreeing with what you said. A higher population means that a team has an opportunity for higher revenues, period....it's simple economics.

If Miami has a MSA of 6 mill yet they are only drawing 15K a game, then management is doing something wrong. My whole point is that the potential is there for greater revenues, while legit small markets like KC, Tampa, and Pittsburgh don't have nearly the same potential.

by eazyb81 on Oct 5, 2006 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions

pointless

this back and forth is pointless.

1. You are very loosely defining Miami. Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami Beach may have 6 million people. But the vast majority of those people aren't going to travel the hour necessary to get to the game.

Miami-Dade County has about 2.5 million people. The bulk of them fairly far south of where the stadium is. Broward County (north of Dade) has less than 2 million people. And even most of them aren't going to travel the distance/time it will take to get to the game.

2. It doesn't even matter how many people live in the area, there just isn't great interest in baseball. It's no coincidence that Tampa and Miami can't support baseball teams, but do very well in football - who wants to sit in a stadium for 3 hours in 95 degree heat with crippling humidity? Thus, my "cricket in New York" reference.

No matter how much Loria spends, or who he brings in, the Marlins will not get the 30,000 fans per game.

by Galt on Oct 5, 2006 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions

Re:

A city's MSA is a much better indicator of a city's metro population, rather than strictly using the population inside the city limits. Of course the city limits of Miami would have a much smaller population than 6 million, but so would every other MSA I listed. The entire point is that the potential is there for greater attendance and greater revenue, moreso than legit small markets.
Yeah, I remember people saying the same thing about hockey in Texas or Arizona and basketball in Toronto, Utah, and Minnesota.

"No matter how much Loria spends, or who he brings in, the Marlins will not get the 30,000 fans per game."

And that's where we disagree.

by eazyb81 on Oct 5, 2006 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions

TV market vs. stadium accessible market

One thing to remember about Miami's market is that it extends very far in only one direction, with no public transportation system to speak of, so about half the people in the market are actually more like being in the mext market over. Most urban areas, you can get to the ballpark in an hour (presuming light traffic) from about anywhere in the metro area, other than the four metro areas that are so big they can support multiple teams, all of which have a centrallized population large enough that you don't have to worry too much about getting the people who live out on the fringes in.

by Brickhaus on Oct 4, 2006 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Somehow

MLB teams always Claim to Lose money but yet thier owners are guys who have Made Billions of $ and keep a money loser around. I don't think that we are told the truth as much as we like to think we are.

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Oct 4, 2006 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions

TRUTH!

Actually we are probably usually told the truth about that, from a certain point of view.

For instance, the owner's son could be an executive with a $10M salary, then oh darn we lost 5 mil.

Also, from an accounting point of view they show a loss, but the franchise value increases, which is money in their pockey they don't count.

The big one is they sell the cable broadcast rights to their own channel for a piddly amount, then the team loses money, but the team cable network makes a mint.

by elricsi on Oct 4, 2006 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Loria should be cheered

as long as he isn't taking money from other teams that actually bother to build a fanbase.

Loria can do whatever he wants, as long as he doesn't "share" revenues with other teams.

Are you a Marlins fan?

by rfloh @ Minor League Ball on Oct 5, 2006 7:19 AM EDT up reply actions

no

im not a marlins fan, if any such thing actually exists. nor am i argueing that its bad to make money, nothing wrong with that. im pissed over owners who would rather beg for money from the public rather than build a profitable business legitimately. can any one wonder why marlins fans never show up, considering their owners have always been saying the team is, and will remain a looser until they get a new fan base?

by sanchez101 on Oct 6, 2006 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Cubs, maybe

That is the rumor on Girardi. Or maybe he'll end up with a better franchise (sorry, as the Cubs are my second-favorite team).

The goods news is that Girardi will end up on his feet (I assume) because he is well liked and clearly did a great job this year. He'll be better somewhere where the owner isn't selling out the team.

The bad news is for Marlins fans. I don't even know what to say.

By the way, if the commissioner or owners forced this guy out, they would have to pay him several hundred million dollars as compensation for the value of the franchise (unless there was something more I don't know about in the bizarre Expos for Marlins for Red Sox deal a while ago).

Unfortunately for Florida fans, that isn't going to happen.

by BIgMax on Oct 4, 2006 9:49 AM EDT reply actions

Great for Girardi

Pay raise, pay raise, pay raise!

by OneHitWonder @ Minor League Ball on Oct 4, 2006 9:56 AM EDT reply actions

Yep,

and he probably won't have to worry about being emabarrassed by an owner heckling the home plate umpire.

by slurve on Oct 4, 2006 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions

Loria

He is irritating, but has some business sense. I don't see much difference between him and the owner in Minnesota.

One thing you need to realize is that baseball does not want owners who spend all their profits and some of their own money on the team, year after year. This is why owners have to be approved. I doubt they would approve Paul Allen or Mark Cuban unless they promised to keep their own money in their pockets.

If Loria gets Florida to pay for most of a stadium, he will be a hero to the owners and exactly what they want.

I wonder if maybe it would be a good idea to put a federal tax on state stadium building. Congress can say, "hey if you have so much money that you can blow some on that, give us some." The thing is I like all the new and improved stadiums, just states falling all over themselves to increase franchise values for superrich guys seems a bit wrong.

by elricsi on Oct 4, 2006 11:54 AM EDT reply actions

Pohlad vs. Loria

Although Pohlad is perhaps not the greatest owner, I wouldn't put him in Loria's class. Pohlad has been willing to spend a bit more in recent seasons. The Twins' payroll topped $60 million this year, and I'm sure he puts quite a bit more into scouting and player development. It will be interesting to see what he does with the payroll when the new stadium opens up in MN in 2010.

by MauerPower @ Minor League Ball on Oct 4, 2006 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Numbers

Are numbers available anywhere for what teams put into scouting and player development? It seems with all the trades the Marlins have made and all the young prospects that have hit the ground running, they seem to do this part very well. I'd be curious how the numbers break down.

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -Red Barber

by e 6 on Oct 4, 2006 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Beinfest

I thought the real issue was a tiff between Girardi and the GM, not Loria. Does anyone know the real story here (and yes, I know all about the ump incident).

by Yakker on Oct 4, 2006 1:30 PM EDT reply actions

mostly

I was talking about Loria firing Girardi over Joe asking him basically to quit being a baby and heckling an ump.

A player gets suspended 5 games for spitting on an ump. One gets 50 games for throwing a bat. An owner (OWNER, not a normal fan) yells and berates an ump and its no big deal. His manager politely asks him to show a little class and tone it down a little and is fired. Not saying this is a crisis or to the level of the other two, but come on...you are an OWNER of a Major League Baseball team at least show some modicum of respect for the game that's putting millions in your pockets.

If you didn't get the story when it happened in August, here's the gist:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AtydLquiiWOB8rIVXrNonogRvLYF?slug=ap-marlins-gonzalez&prov =ap&type=lgns

As far as Loria not putting money into the team, its a bit of a different subject, but is at least a symptom of the problems with this guy.

Like I said, I hope that franchise rots in south Florida. Feel sorry for the players, but maybe someday he'll figure out how much of a schmuck he is.

Maybe Joe ends up taking a year off (with YES again?) and replaces Torre in 08. Bit far fetched, but the Yanks could do worse.

by roaddog on Oct 4, 2006 1:37 PM EDT reply actions

Loria

I think the main deal is that Loria questioned Girardi's talent evaluation.

by limozeen on Oct 4, 2006 3:05 PM EDT reply actions

Pfft

The sense of entitlement that rich pinheads have is astounding. It always seems like a twin killing with those guys:

-- Don't hurt my feelings

-- I always know better

My favorite anecdote about meddling owners concerned the Seattle Seahawks' Ken Behring, whose neighbor reportedly told him, You gotta see this college star, he's unstoppable, they can't bring him down. So Behring tells his GM, Tom Flores, to draft this kid in the first round.

That player's name? Dan McGwire. We all know how that one turned out.

Professional sports would be so much better off if those guys would just run a few fantasy teams and leave the real decisions to the big kids.

by Flynn Blake on Oct 4, 2006 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions