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Crystal Ball: Felix Hernandez

Crystal Ball: Felix Hernandez
     Doing a crystal ball for this guy is fraught with danger. Basically anything I write here will be torn apart by someone. If the crystal ball sees brilliance ahead, people will say "there is no such thing as a pitching prospect." If the crystal ball predicts mediocrity, Mariners fans and fantasy owners will scream bloody murder. Shooting for the midpoint is my natural inclination here, but in a case like Hernandez, that's chickensXXt.
     Anyhow, I said I'd do it, so here goes. Fundamental assumptions for this crystal ball:
A)    Felix Hernandez is as good as everyone thinks, something like a cross between Dwight Gooden and Mark Prior.
B)    Felix Hernandez will be handled carefully by the Mariners. They won't ask him to throw 250 innings right away.
C)    There's still a good chance he will get hurt.
D)  He eventually becomes too expensive for a "small revenue" team to hold on to.

I designed this to represent an outstanding pitcher with a couple of interruptions due to injury and a gradually declining ability to dominate a game.

As before, this is a starting point for discussion. Is this a realistic expectation for Felix? Are we expecting too much? Is he going to last this long, or will he be a burnout like, say, Jose Rijo?

0 recs  |  Comment 30 comments

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King Felix
Looks like he'll take home one Cy (2014) as a Met.  Will he pitch the first no-hitter in team history?

Generally, I think he'll be better sooner than that projection, barring early injury (I think he's capable of 3.00 ERAs right away), but I think that is a pretty fair guess.

by danielj on Sep 13, 2005 7:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Heh
Typical Cubs move, pick up the great player at the end of a great career.

I think he'll get hurt, but it won't be something career threatening (ie TJ surgery). I think he'll be just as good as you project, but far more dominant (more K's).

Also John, do you think that you can add HR's given up for the pitchers? It'd be really useful.

by SenorGato88 on Sep 13, 2005 7:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

c'mon
it looks like when we pick him up mid-season in 2018, it's for the pennant run.  He's OUR World Series MVP.

LOL!

I think it's a very fair career path.  I think the K's are maybe a tad low given he'll start throwing a slider in the next couple of years.

I don't think he'll pitch until age 40.  I would see the end around age 36-37 season.  That would put him at 240 wins.  If he ends up with some real quality teams in his career, that's a real possibility.

Good job John!

by So Cal Bob on Sep 13, 2005 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LK
I was thinking that I might have low-balled the strikeouts....but I still have him coming out over 3,000.

by John Sickels on Sep 13, 2005 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

splitting hairs
that's all.  I think if this was presented to Felix, he would probably accept.  He'll make a lot of money over the course of this career path!

277 wins and 3000 K's will be HOF worthy.

by So Cal Bob on Sep 13, 2005 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the hair
287 wins and 3,701 K's 3.31 ERA is not HOF worthy.

nor is: 288 wins and 2,245 K's 3.34 ERA

...apparently... so not necessarily.

I agree that this ball view is about as good as any pitcher beginning his career could legitimately hope to achieve.  good job John.

by roaddog on Sep 13, 2005 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HOF
277 W's isn't worthy?  We are probably seeing the last of the 300 game winners when the guys like Maddux and Clemens retire.  Randy Johnson will have similar #'s to what John gave us for Felix.  The only debate for Unit is 1st or 2nd ballot, which is a stupid debate IMO.  If you have to be a 300 game winner to get the call in 5-10 years from now, you're screwed.  Pitchers don't start as many games per year as they used to.  The game has changed and as a result the people that vote will have to change with it, unless of course your name is Joe Morgan.  These people are going to have to realize that the win is a poor criteria to judge how a pitcher pitched a game, much less a career.  The voters are still behind the times, but slowly the shift has started where they look more at periferal #'s like BAA, BB/9, etc. as well as factor in that the 300 game winner is a thing of the past.  

I think Felix will come closer to striking out 4000, win about 275 w/ an ERA just under 3.  His 5 or 6 Cy Young seasons will ensure gets the call.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Sep 14, 2005 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's not serious...

It's a sarcastic remark about how Bert Blyleven and Tommy John aren't yet in the HoF.

by Wezlar on Sep 17, 2005 5:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Felix
I think 277 wins is a lot to predict.  I worry about him being abused while he is so young.  That being said, if you were going to gamble on a young guy winning close to 300 games, you could do a lot worse than Felix.  I really like where he joined the Cubs in the middle of their 8-peat and helped propel Ryan Harvey and co. to four straight 100 win seasons.  

by RiverCats05 on Sep 13, 2005 7:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You had me...
until Ryan Harvey.  I think he strikes out too much and will never amount to much.  I hope I'm wrong, but...
"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Sep 13, 2005 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question for all that love King Felix
And I dont mean to stray off topic, but I think it could spark interesting discussion.

Do you think he could break the trend and succeed at Coors?  Do you feel he's good enough?  Or is success as a pitcher at coors just an impossible task?

by cincyinco on Sep 13, 2005 8:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This is very similar to Bert Blyleven's career.
Hernandez has a better K/9, better win %, better ERA in a "hitters" era, and a nearly equal K/BB ratio.  Blyleven has more wins, innings pitched, K's, and even though they're not listed CG (242), and SHO (60).  I think the real question is, with the way the game is played now vs. just 15-20 years ago, will those numbers be HOF worthy?  Time will tell, I guess.  Anyway, onto the fun stuff.

Felix Hernandez debuted for the Seattle Mariners in the fall of 2005, and never looked back.  His first two full seasons were good, but not great.  In 2008, it appeared that Felix was on his way to his first Cy Young award.  He started the All-Star game that season, and was 12-4 heading into August.  As is common these days for pitchers, an arm injury and Tommy John surgery occured.  The Mariners were cautious in Hernandez's return, waiting until mid-August of 2009 to allow him to return.

Hernandez seemed to come back stronger than ever in 2010, posting career highs in wins, K's, and innings.  2011 was the breakout year for Felix.  He won his first Cy Young award, leading the AL in wins, innings, strikeouts, complete games, shutouts, and ERA.  That season also marked the end of his run with the Mariners.

The New York Mets, in need of a star pitcher since Pedro Martinez retired, signed Hernandez to a 4 year $80 million deal.  The 2012 season is a strong year for Hernandez, setting career highs for innings pitched and strikeouts.  The following season, Felix wins his second Cy Young award, his first in the NL.  He finishes first in win %, first in ERA, second in wins, and second in strikeouts.

In 2013, Hernandez leads the Mets to an NL East title, picking up his third Cy Young along the way.  Felix finishes the regular season first in wins, win %, and ERA, while finishing third in innings and strikeouts.  Hernandez leads the Mets to a World Series win, picking up the NLCS and World Series MVP awards.  For the postseason, Hernandez goes 6-0, with a 1.17 ERA, and 50K's in 54 innings.  

In the offseason, the Mets resign Hernandez to a 3 year, $63 million deal.  Unfortunately, in July Hernandez suffers a torn rotator cuff and missed over a year, not returning until late in September 2016.  While 2017 was poor by his standards, Felix rebounded fairly well from the rotator cuff injury.  At the deadline in 2018, with the Mets out of contention and Hernandez in his final season of his contract, he is traded to the Cubs.

He pitches the Cubs to the NLCS, but they can't overcome the defending champion Cardinals.  In 2019, the Cubs resign Hernandez to a 3 year $48 million deal.  A couple of small injuries keep Hernandez from breaking the 200 inning barrier in 2019, and Cub fans begin to bemoan the signing.  Hernandez silences his critics by leading the Cubs to a World Series victory in 2020.  His very average 2021 season leads the Cubs to not entertain thoughts of bringing him back.

The Mets, desperate to make the playoffs again after a 7 year absence, bring Hernandez back to NYC with a 3 year, $36 million deal.  Hernandez has one solid year left in him, and two very mediocre ones, which disappoint the Mets and their fans.  Seattle brings Felix back in 2025, with a minor league contract.  He starts the year in the pen, and assume a starting spot due to an injury to another pitcher.  He comes back in 2026, but decides to hang it up in June of that year.

by gatling on Sep 13, 2005 8:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Elite Prospect
Barring serious injury, I don't see how you can project anything less.  He's the best, most exciting pitching prospect since, well, Mark Prior before Prior started getting hurt.  Other than that, I don't recall any prospect with this kind of velocity and also command of at least 3 pitches in my lifetime, and I'm 49 yo.

by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 13, 2005 8:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

aging gracefully?
Its a pretty good prediction, but I have to wonder if the last half of his career might be better, since pitchers seem to be aging a little more gracefully these days.

by amol on Sep 13, 2005 9:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Mariners fan that I am..
I say that Felix wins 5+ Cy's, tosses a couple of no-nos, and turns out like Edgar.
For anyone else, I'd say this was a good prediction.. lol

by Bigfoot Hunter on Sep 13, 2005 9:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

felix hernandez
I see 3+ cy's a hall of fame pitcher

by barton1 on Sep 13, 2005 10:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

kerry wood
i love felix but watching him pitch i feel he will be in for a similar fate as kerry wood. i sure hope not, but its my gut reaction to seeing him pitch.

by taggartd on Sep 13, 2005 10:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ouch...
i wouldn't wish a kerry wood comparison on anyone, especially someone i liked.

by huckleberry on Sep 14, 2005 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Doc
I can't see anything but a Dwight Gooden career path minus the drugs and alcohol.

by JFP on Sep 14, 2005 12:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

In other words
He's perfect?

by sasquatch83 on Sep 14, 2005 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2012?
Nice projection. I think it's fundamentally optimistic, but it's certainly within the assumptions posted at the top of the essay.

One thing that jumped out at me, though - in 2012, you've got Hernandez due to throw 32 games and over 250 innings, which works out to nearly 8 innings per start. (7.9something to be a bit more precise)

Normally I'd just dismiss this as something of a fluke, kind of like Carlos Silva's unreal walk total this season. But then I noticed your comment about the Mariners not throwing him 250 innings right away.

In an era of pitch counts, five-man rotations, and set-up relievers, is 250 innings a realistic target for a starting pitcher anymore? Consider that if Hernandez has, say, three starts in 2012 where he's knocked out before the fifth inning, he'd need something like ten complete games to keep his per-start average high enough to top 250 innings. And I think ten complete games would be a pretty bold prediction for almost any pitcher.

by dwintheiser on Sep 14, 2005 12:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

250
Yeah, that 250 inning thing does look kinda funny in 32 starts. So make it 35 starts! :)

by John Sickels on Sep 14, 2005 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mariners low revenue?
If the Mariners are low revenue, then there are only about five teams that aren't. The M's have consistently been one of the most profitable and high revenue teams for the last five or six years.

Now, it's possible that their current slides could end that, but right now it's just not true.

That doesn't mean that Felix won't leave, but it really overstates the case to say Seattle is low revenue.

by coov on Sep 14, 2005 12:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Mariners 3rd highest revenues in MLB in 2004...
John, I think you're the cat's pajamas when it comes to reporting on minor league talent but, please tell me how someone who strains so mightily to approach his subject matter in a scientific and deliberate fashion can be so careless on such a "hot button" topic. To not know that the Mariners are among baseball's lords of the realm in terms of franchise value, gate receipts, media assets, and overall revenue is almost as bad as willfully omitting the fact. And I hope you weren't doing that.

by gravitys on Sep 14, 2005 3:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

mariners
yeah, that was stupid. not much else to say. don't have a convenient FEMA director to use as a scapegoat.

by John Sickels on Sep 14, 2005 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

defense
In my defense, I was thinking more in behavioral terms than financial ones. I had in mind the "expensive veteran for prospects" trades that the M's have made from time to time, such as the Garcia trade with the White Sox, and the Griffey and Johnson trades. That is what I was thinking about, a team that does have a history of dumping expensive players.

But the characterization of Seattle as "small revenue" is certainly inaccurate.

by John Sickels on Sep 14, 2005 4:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

between Prior and Gooden?!? + methodology question
Prior's first full season, he went 18-6 with a 2.43 ERA and 245 Ks in 211 IPs.  I don't have Gooden's rookie #s in front of me, but they were other-wordly.  You haven't got Felix's ERA landing below 2.50 until age 27 (leaving aside this year, which is bounded by real stats obviously).

I enjoy these crystal ball features, but I do feel like they're more smoothing exercises than anything else.  Gooden and Prior were exceptional talents who produced exceptional/anomalous results very early in their careers, but Felix's predicted path doesn't look exceptional:  it looks like every other pitcher's path, simply scaled up.

I guess my question is- do these numbers say anything specific about Felix Hernandez, or are they just (regular pitcher) x 1.8?  For example, the fact that he seems to have poise/physical maturity so soon might lead one to expect his early #s will be closer to his peak than average (closer than, say, pipe-cleaner armed Zack Greinke).

I think if I were going to do a crystal ball here, I'd give two outcomes:  maybe one with frequent injuries, a few dominant seasons but lots of starts/stops; and another that's primarily healthy, Doc Gooden realized, with once-in-a-generation totals.

With respect, the above numbers look like expected mean values rather than any one particular outcome.

by Rogers Reilly on Sep 15, 2005 12:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Felix will spend his career in Safeco
Another poster noted it already, but the Crystal Ball got a little fuzzy I guess when the Ms showed up as a "low revenue" organization.

Felix has stated the Ms were his favorite team as a kid growing up - and sure that can change - but there's no reason to believe it's going to change as he's already said "no" to the Mets and others who came-a-courtin' (some with more $$$ than Seattle offered).

Anyway, is it too much to ask to prognosticate his career assuming he plays his entire career in pitcher-friendly Safeco for the very, very "high revenue" Ms?

by collisonrules on Sep 15, 2005 4:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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