sammy sosa's rise and fall

by RJB7 on Aug 28, 2005 11:51 PM EDT

As a Cubs fan I have followed the Cubs since I was young. I have never seen anyone mention the effect that Jeff Pentland may or may not have had on Sosa's development as a hitter. It seems that his arrival precipated a change in Sosa's stance, load (the step back and then forward), and at-bat plan. These changes seemed to spark the amazing run of offensive numbers he put up over several years. When Pentland was let go it seemed that Sosa started his decline. It appeared that the patience (not swinging at sliders in the dirt) and the gameplan slowly changed and I saw a Sosa swinging much more like he did at the beginning of his career. I'm curious to see what anybody else noticed this. How much of his success can be contributed to his batting coach, pentland? I feel that he was a big part of Sosa's success.

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Good point...

Hello Rob Bello,

I haven't seen Sosa bat much this year, but that sounds like a good and reasonable point - Sosa "fell off" last year while still with the Cubs. Now, with the move to Baltimore and the way he left the Cubs, that "stress" combined with his lack of good batting fundamentals seem to have put him in one of the worst (if not worst) drought of his career.

He is not hitting the ball much, and when he does, he's not driving the ball with much authority.

I'd be very interested to see what others say on this. Thanks for bringing up this topic and good observation. :-)

Take care and have a great day.

by indiansfan on Aug 29, 2005 2:58 AM EDT 0 recs

sosa

Sammy Sosa has been famous for his batspeed and hitting approach with the aforementioned step back and then step forward. the reason he was able to hit 66 hrs in a season was the s word (thats steroids). think about it, no one else in the league can step back and still hit home runs, never mind 66 in 1998. then a little incident called congressional hearings come around and sosa starts to stop using the steroids. with stanzonol, or whatever he was taking he could forget about hitting mechanics because he was strong and quick enough to bypass them.

by the way, i believe that sosa was really on steroids if you can't tell

by WakeboardJock on Aug 29, 2005 7:58 AM EDT 0 recs

Batting stance

Sosa may be the only one to take a step backwards, but that does not necessarily prove he took 'roids. Frank Thomas has never, to my knowledge, been accused of roiding, and he doesn't hit the ball with his backfoot on the ground. He was always a nice power source in the 90s. So just because someone has an original or off-the-wall stance and can still hit homeruns, lets not automatically assume they were using steroids.

Dont get me wrong, I think he used too, but it has nothing to do with his stance.

by Boxkutter on Aug 29, 2005 11:29 AM EDT up 0 recs

pentland schmentland

Sosa should hang his head. He was a blantant roider that became a diva.

by patsydean on Aug 29, 2005 9:19 AM EDT 0 recs

agree

sosa's success was 100% sostenon, deca, or whatever he was injecting into his chemically inhanced body.

he lied about the bat corking incident, and he is now lying about his blatant steroid use

by ScottAZ on Aug 29, 2005 9:38 AM EDT 0 recs

Comment on bad plate approach

Sosa has always been somewhat of a free swinger a la Vlad Guerrero. There was a posting somewhere (maybe here) that I read regarding who you would want at the plate down by 1 run with 1 on.

There was an interesting argument made for Sosa and Guerrero because they could just as easily hit that down and away slider out of the park as they could the middle of the plate pitch. They had learned to hit bad pitches so well.

The argument said that since anyone in that group of players (Pujols, Lee, Manny, Ortiz, etc) would probably not see a good pitch anyway - the person making the argument said they would rather have Sosa or Vlad because with the other guys - it will probably end up in a walk but at least with Sosa or Vlad - there was the chance for something special.

As far as the roids - I won't get into much other than to say he has been declining for 4 years with avg, power, etc and at 37 - that happens to a lot of players. What many of you need to remember is that if not for McGwire and Sosa - we may not have the excitement that exists around this game today. Say what you want about them, their records or anything else but that season in 1998 saved....i repeat...saved our American pastime.

by slickwdb on Aug 29, 2005 11:17 AM EDT 0 recs

Will Carroll said it best

Aug. 19, 2005 Under the Knife - Baseball Prospectus

"I'll say this again: the only standard for me is a positive test or admission of use. Absent that, I won't discuss it in this space. A trade rumor is one thing; potential libel is entirely another."

Note: Of course "regular" folks who post most likely can't be sued for libel but Will Carroll's standard is most fair. I am not a fan trashing someone personally without proof regardless of what I "think."

by stjp5 on Aug 29, 2005 11:42 AM EDT 0 recs

I agree wholeheartedly

We should not be on a witch hunt and accuse anyone who has ever hit a home run, and subsequently is having an off year.

It is fair, I think, to generalize the so called "steroid era" and remember that there are questions about baseball statistics.

However, when talking about specific players we need to refrain from accusations without proof.

Awhile back, John had a diary ripping the media for not reporting the 'true news' and instead reporting only what was in their best interest. At that time, a lot of the bloggers on this site were quick to rip the news media as well. If we are to have a website that is void of that type of 'reporting', and thus be better, we need to avoid throwing the steroid word around blindly. Otherwise, we are no better than those we have so thoroughly criticized.

by dbimberg on Aug 29, 2005 3:29 PM EDT up 0 recs

A response to Boxcutter

It was about his back leg but front leg. When he steps forward to intiate his swing, instead of stepping towards the ball, he steps away, and he is the only one to do that. with steroids, they made up for the mechanical flaw and then some ( a la 66 hrs), but without them, he is just a washed up power hitter in need of steroids.

by WakeboardJock on Aug 29, 2005 12:12 PM EDT 0 recs

Congressional Hearings?

Your timetable is a little flawed - his production began declining long before "congressional hearings." This is in fact the 4th consecutive decline in offensive production - in line with someone peaking in the early to mid 30's and declining there after. Injuries have set-in - indicative of someone reaching the end of the road. There are 100's of great players (HOF's included) who have followed a similar production schedule. Slow start to career, improvement, spike, peak, decline - to make some blanket comment about roids being the only factor is both naive and well....I will leave it at that.

by slickwdb on Aug 29, 2005 1:34 PM EDT up 0 recs

Wakeboard Jock

you obviously haven't watched Sosa or you wouldn't mention his mechanics because you have them all wrong.

Sammy "recoils" with his left foot moving back towards his right foot as the pitcher is ready to throw. The point you miss and, terribly at that, is Sammy does indeed take a stride with his left foot again as the pitcher releases the ball. He, in no way, hits with his foot moving backwards.

There is 1 player who actually hits with his front foot moving backwards and it has been documented on many braodcasts. That player is Jeff Bagwell.

And Rob--I couldn't agree more. Sammy had no plan the last 3 years and his mechanics regressed from his hey days. Great catch on that.

by So Cal Bob on Aug 29, 2005 1:58 PM EDT up 0 recs

i agree with so cal bob

sosa steps back, then forward. bags is the only guy who hits while backing off--it is absolutely crazy and also looks ugly but the man has had a hell of a career, so who am i to criticize it?

by jpahk on Aug 29, 2005 5:20 PM EDT up 0 recs

irritating

the step backward is not the one that is important, when striding forward in his swing, instead of stepping totally forward, it is diagonal i guess, or he is stepping away from the plate, sorry i didn't clear that up so cal bob.

by WakeboardJock on Aug 29, 2005 2:59 PM EDT 0 recs

also on sosa declining

sosa had 35 hrs and 80 rbis as well last year, and i wouldn't necessarily call that a bad year. mind you, that was in only 478 At bats, not the usual 600 ABs he would get. this year he has 14 and most likely end up with no more than 20 in roughly the same amount of Abs if he finishes the season out. that is the production I was referencing when i said there was a vast drop off. he goes 49 hrs, 40, 35, 14 (so far). that is an incredible drop off.

by WakeboardJock on Aug 29, 2005 3:04 PM EDT 0 recs

look a little deeper

I still don't understand what you are talking about with his mechanics. I re-read the post and it still baffles me as I thought you were saying he was hitting with his stride foot going backwards. Sorry.
he was the first player EVER to hit 35 HR and have 80 or less RBI. Sammy was brutal last year in terms of production. That's why there was an outcry to move him down in the lineup. So on the surface the 35/80 looks nice, but it was a bad year.
when you put up HR/RBI numbers over a 3 year period that only a few in baseball could rival, they are going to go down. There is no way a player could maintain that pace.
and Sammy looks closer to 40 than 37--who knows and a decline is imminent. Only Bonds got better with ages in the late 30's.

by So Cal Bob on Aug 29, 2005 3:11 PM EDT up 0 recs

Of course he has dropped off

Let's see - 102 games - all of which have been broker up by injuries and DL stints and there is a question about drop off? He has played 12 games in the last 3 weeks with no HR's in 43 AB's - you think something is wrong? The drop off has nothing to do with mechanics other than his mechanics may be screwed up by the fact that he is injured and can't execute his swing the way he normally would.

by slickwdb on Aug 29, 2005 3:21 PM EDT up 0 recs

Sam-ME

I agree with the absence of Pentland hurting Sosa and he probably was on the juice. His batting approach also seemed to change after he was beened in the head a few years back. He became a really dangerous hitter when he started launching pitches that were on the outer part of plate to the opposite field. When he came back from getting plunked, he seemed to be a bit gun-shy and appeared to be off the plate a little more. That's when pitchers started using breaking balls away from him to get him out again. He had Chi-town in the palm of his hand and let his ego blow it.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Aug 29, 2005 5:45 PM EDT 0 recs

old man blues

Everything is speculation. Our only evidence is that the man is 37; and baseball players as well as the rest of the population tend to decline a tad around that age... unless they're Zeus..er...Bonds.

by Sospiro0 on Aug 29, 2005 11:43 PM EDT 0 recs