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Prospect Retro: Rob Dibble


Prospect Retrospective: Rob Dibble

Doing a Prospect Retrospective on Rob Dibble might seem a bit strange. But I have a reason. I did a brief interview with Dibble and Kevin Kennedy yesterday on XM Satellite radio, and Rob mentioned that he visits occasionally here at Minorleagueball. That got me thinking about when Dibble first came up to the Majors back in the late 80s. For nostalgia purposes, I went back and looked at his career numbers. I noticed that Dibble's minor league career is rather interesting, and illustrates a point I've tried to make occasionally about the relationship between velocity, pitching success, and strikeouts.

Dibble was a first-round pick in the secondary phase of the 1983 June draft. Assigned to Billings in the Pioneer League, he posted a 7.82 ERA in 12.2 innings, allowing 18 hits, 13 runs, with a 7/11 K/BB ratio. Moved up to Eugene in the Northwest League, he pitched a bit better, going 3-2, 5.73 in 7 starts, but with a still weak 17/18 K/BB in 38 innings.

The following season for Tampa in the Florida State League, he went 5-2, 2.92 in 64.2 innings, allowing 59 hits. His K/BB was 39/29. Note the low strikeout rate and weak overall K/BB. Despite having great velocity, he wasn't striking people out. His ERA was pretty, but the underlying K/IP ratio was a warning.

Velocity and strikeouts are not the same thing; it is K/IP that is the best indicator of future potential, not just the number on the radar gun. A guy with an impressive fastball but a low strikeout rate is often disappointing compared to a guy with a mediocre fastball but an excellent strikeout rate, provided that the guy with the weaker fastball maintains his strikeouts as he moves up. If the strikeouts start to decline for the finesse guy, that's a big red flag. This is the Allan Anderson effect (the subject of our next prospect retro tomorrow). But on the other hand, if the strikeouts start to increase for the hard-thrower, it's a sign that he is figuring out his craft.

Dibble went 5-5 with a 3.84 ERA for Class A Cedar Rapids in '95, converting to relief and saving 12 games. His K/BB was 73/28 in 66 innings. Note the strong improvement in his K/IP, a sign that he was starting to live up to the potential inherent in his arm strength. The question would be if he could maintain this progress in Double-A.

For Double-A Vermont in '86, Dibble posted a solid 3.09 ERA and 10 saves, but his K/BB was 37/28 in 55 innings, as his strikeout rate took a tumble. Caution flag! Moved up to Triple-A Nashville for '87, he pitched mostly in middle relief and did not do particularly well, with a 4.72 ERA. He allowed 72 hits in 61 innings; his K/BB was 51/27. The K/IP improved, but he still needed better command.

In '88, things clicked. Dibble increased his strikeout rate dramatically, fanning 41 in 35 innings for Nashville, while also showing improved control. He saved 13 games, posted a 2.31 ERA, and earned a promotion to Cincinnati, where he was a major relief force down the stretch. Dibble won 10 games with a 2.09 ERA and 141 strikeouts in 99 innings in '89, establishing his credentials as a Big League fireballer.

In 477 career Major League innings, Dibble fanned 645 men and posted a 2.98 ERA. This was much better than his minor league aggregate numbers: 294 strikeouts in 354 innings, with a 4.24 ERA.

In Dibble's case, you can see the direct relationship between strikeouts and effectiveness. He didn't really thrive in the minors until his second year in Triple-A, when he suddenly gained a modicum of command and started striking more people out. Velocity helps a pitcher, but it does not make a pitcher.

Similar Pitchers to Rob Dibble
Scott Williamson
Dick Radatz
Ken Sanders
Al Holland
Bob Lee
Lance McCullers
Rawly Eastwick

0 recs | Comment 16 comments

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My Dibble Story
...too funny not to share.

So a buddy and I went to the Hilton Hotel here in Houston before last year's AS game becuase Patrick & Dibble were on the radio remoting from a small corner of the lobby.  They were interviewing the Wizard and George Brett, so I had to take the opportunity to stop by.  The crowd was relatively small, so it wasn't hard to get close.  Anyway, I was wearing an Astros jersey when I walked up...they were near the basement and Jimy Williams was still the Mgr.

A few minutes after I walked up, Patrick started to ask Dibbs where the Reds would finish.  Dibbs shamelessly said "They'll make the playoffs".  I lauged out loud to the point that it caught Dibbs attention.  He said on the radio "What, it's not like the Astros are going to make the playoffs you #####."  He didn't cause, but he called me a name...I can't remember what, but I didn't care...it was all in good fun.  Anyway, I actually said to my buddy that I ought to bet him (I know he likes to do that with tats).  I wouldn't have done a tat, so I didn't bring it up, but I should have.  I was going to bet him something that the Astros finished ahead of the Reds....

Oh well, should've, could've, would've...  Astros made it to the NLCS and and the Reds were 10 games under .500.  How I wish I made some bet...

Thought it would be interesting to see if Dibbs read this and remembered...  My guess is he wouldn't, but it's my one Dibbs memory.  

by FredUD on Jun 14, 2005 3:50 PM EDT   0 recs

Great Job John!
I think Dibble's case is a good case on why teams need to have a happy balance of traditional scouting and performance analysis.  It could have been easy for a baseball team to write Dibble off early in his minor league career but the Reds realized he had the "upside" to turn things around.  

Dibble had a remarkable 4 year run of K totals:

  1.  141 K in 99   IP
  2.  136 K in 98   IP
  3.  124 K in 82.1 IP
  4.  124 K in 82.1 IP
 

by sdbaseballfan on Jun 14, 2005 4:25 PM EDT   0 recs

Ratios
That begs the question though... how many guys were in the minors at the same time as Dibble who could pop the mitt at 95-97, but never even got to the majors (much less made an impact there)?

No one's ever denied that guys like this sometimes succeed. The choice has always been how much of your resources (draft picks, roster spots etc.) are you willing to commit to finding the next Dibble?

Go ahead and shoot your mouth off, like it might kill the silence.

by ESiegrist on Jun 14, 2005 5:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Dibble's side
This is a situation where I would love to hear Dibble's take on the progression. Did he feel that things finally clicked for him that second year in AAA? Did he make some real mechanical adjustment; was there a mental adjustment? I know I'd be interested.

by michael lewis on Jun 14, 2005 5:57 PM EDT   0 recs

I agree entirely
Although sometimes the player is too close to make an objective observation. His coach's take would be fascinating too.

by Salemicus on Jun 14, 2005 6:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

lots of variables
do we know how big he was when he signed?  Are we sure he was able to throw 95-97 right after signing?  Or did he hit the weights, filled out as a man, and then began to really bring it?

Great points and it would be nice to hear from him and a player development guy what they saw and how this transformation took place.

by So Cal Bob on Jun 14, 2005 6:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

exactly
Exactly, there are lots of variables in player development, and getting the information from scouts, coaches, and players could go a long way towards helping our understanding of how players develop and why they develop, at least from a physical perspective. I'd imagine there are psychological factors, e.g., maturity, openness to instruction, adaptability, etc., that make a difference as well, but those are definitely harder to quantify from an outsider's perspective.

by michael lewis on Jun 15, 2005 11:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

is that
THE Michael Lewis?

by dcarrano on Jun 15, 2005 2:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

nope
it's a common name.

by michael lewis on Jun 15, 2005 5:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

my hero
Damn he was my hero in highschool! He and Mitch Williams actually. I loved to pitch in relief and I just reared back and threw it as hard as I could. I actually threw pretty hard for my short(5'6), scrawny(115lb) frame. Also, I learned the relief pitcher's golden rule watching Dibble, when in doubt hit a batter.

by pst2 on Jun 14, 2005 7:13 PM EDT   0 recs

Dibble
Dibble speaks his mind and that's a refreshing change from today's cookie cutter announcers. He's audacious.

Didn't he say he would shave his head, if Ichiro hit over .300?  I still smile at that comment because I also didn't think Ichiro would succeed at the MLB level. Needless to say, I was schooled.

by Goodfella on Jun 14, 2005 7:26 PM EDT   0 recs

Dibble and Ichiro
Actually, Dibble had Ichiro tattooed on his ass I believe when he lost that bet.

I miss him on the Dan Patrick show but really enjoy him in the afternoons with Kevin Kennedy.

by UCFKnights on Jun 14, 2005 9:56 PM EDT   0 recs

Steriods?
Such a significant jump in his numbers that late in the game begs the question. (Not too mention the relatively young arm breakdown) I have to believe this change in K ratios is atypical as a pitcher moves to higher levels.

by HuskerBob on Jun 15, 2005 12:12 PM EDT   0 recs

i think the whole point
which, it would appear, flew so high above your head planes hit it, is that throwing harder doesn't correlate to striking guys out. what happened probably had much more to do with his head than his arm, but that's for him, or at least someone better informed than me, to answer.

the steroids=performance notion is a quick, cheap, and easy solution to the rise in numbers. it might very well not the answer though, and it definatly isn't all of it.

by GhostsInTheEyes on Jun 15, 2005 2:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is that the point?
Since the article never says how hard he threw before or after his drastic change in numbers I don't see how you can draw that conclusion.

I have a hard time believing it was all in his head when he averaged 10 K's per 9 only once in a full minor league season but was up around 12 to 14 in the majors.  

I would be very interested to see ANY other pitcher that has ever had this type of progression.

by HuskerBob on Jun 15, 2005 3:18 PM EDT   0 recs

dibbl
I'd have to go back and look in old issues of the Sporting News or something, but if memory serves Dibble always had the good fastball. The key was better command and an improved breaking ball.

by John Sickels on Jun 15, 2005 3:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

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