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Around SBN: Dana White: Carlos Condit Accepts Rematch With Nick Diaz

141 pitch CG for Mike Pelfrey today

I watched Pelfrey for about 5 innings today against SMS at Hammons field. His secondary stuff looked a little better than what I saw from him last year at the Valley Tourney but much of it was out of the zone and he followed it with fastball strikes. He was consistently at 93 (I sat behind the scouts) for the time I was there.

It was a cool day getting colder and a mist was getting heavier in the 5th. They had someone warming up in the pen and they were facing a weak lineup so I figured his day might be done. I was rather surprised to see that he finished the game, throwing a whopping 141 pitches. Is this a typical workload for Pelfrey?

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It won't be for long
141 pitches is going to get him a new elbow ligament or shoulder really soon...was Dusty Baker managing the game?

by Marc Normandin @ Minor League Ball on Apr 30, 2005 10:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Pitch counts are overrated
Stop worrying about pitch counts.  There is no correlation between pitch counts and pitcher injuries.  Mechanics tell the story.

Should we limit the number of warm-up tosses?  What about throws between starts?

It's about arm strength, people.  Building up arm strength among young pitchers is crucial to avoid injuries.

by Spooneybarger on Apr 30, 2005 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Spooneybarger=TJS
Kinda funny how a guy named Spooneybarger is talking about arm injuries!

By the way, is the real Spooneybarger EVER going to come back from his Tommy John surgery?

by scarfo on Apr 30, 2005 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Warm-up tosses and long toss and the like
are NOT the same thing as in-game pitches...

by calig23 on Apr 30, 2005 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

really...
Really? Can I see some of those numbers that demonstrate that there is no correlation between pitch count and injuries?

From what Ive read in many places, primarily from Will Carroll in BP.com, pitch counts per start, has more to do with injuries than any other factor, including total innings pitch.

Get your facts straighten out buddy.

Julian de Lavalle

by jdelavalle on Apr 30, 2005 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you, but...
...he doesn't need evidence to support his claim. You do. It's often said that pitch counts increase the likelyhood of injuries, but I've never actually seen anyone prove that.

by Brian38 @ Minor League Ball on May 1, 2005 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's one study, but a good one
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1477#short

Read both parts, it's good stuff.

I'm sure other data is out there, but I don't have it on hand.  But nearly everything I've read has indicated that there is definitely a positive correlation between high pitch counts, particularly over 120-125, and both short-term and long-term injuries as well as performance declines.  Correlation doesn't prove causation, no, but it's awfully hard to 'prove' injury causation with numbers.  Nevertheless, the data is there.

I agree that mechanics are the crux, but the reason pitch counts are important is that mechanics break down as a pitcher fatigues -- as he throws more pitches.  Throwing a high number of pitches in one inning can be more damaging than a 'high' total for the game, throwing high numbers of pitches in many games(particularly without ample rest in between) is particularly worrisome, and pitching in high-pressure/high-leverage situations may also increase injury risk, though that one's a bit sketchier.  

How about Mark Prior?  He supposedly has more or less perfect mechanics(can't say myself, I'm no scout), but he's had problems with injuries since being ridden hard by Dusty in the 2003 playoff push.  I can't prove that the overuse caused the injuries, no, but we can't prove that it didn't contribute to their occurrence either, and given what we're seeing about the correlation between riding a pitcher too hard and injuries, it seems likely that it had something to do with it.

by delomir on May 1, 2005 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Will Carroll says....
Perfect mechanics are a help in preventing injury, but they are not a panacea...not even perfect mechanics can avoid the evil lack of bullpen calling by Dusty Baker

by Marc Normandin @ Minor League Ball on May 1, 2005 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Three names....
Paul Wilson, Bill Pulsipher, Jason Isringhausen...

For todays pitchers only Livan Hernandez seems able to hit high pitch counts consistently, but thats because he claims to pitch at 70% most of the game, and reaches back to regular levels under times of stress in the game. His mechanics are never altered by fatigue, which is what causes the injury, because he does not allow himself to tire out.

by Marc Normandin @ Minor League Ball on May 1, 2005 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pitch counts have alot to do with it
When pitchers get to a higher pitch count, i.e. 120 pitches or so, they start to alter their mechanics to compensate for their fatigue, and then they end up hurting themselves. So yeah, your right, mechanics do have to do with it, but its high pitch counts that hurt mechanics.

The strongest arms in the world get tired ya know...

by Marc Normandin @ Minor League Ball on Apr 30, 2005 10:46 PM EDT reply actions  

By the way
Ask Kerry Wood how much pitch counts don't matter...I bet his tendonitis feels great right about now

by Marc Normandin @ Minor League Ball on Apr 30, 2005 10:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Wood
The Cubs were pissed because Wood's high school coach let him throw something like 170 pitches in a state title game. I'd be freaking pissed too.

by Flynn Blake on May 1, 2005 2:55 AM EDT reply actions  

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