Manny trade - minor leaguers? - Minor League Ball

10/5

You do realize now that the 2005 season is complete that Man-Ram is a 10/5 player and can veto any trade... He'd probably only be willing to go to NY.

by natsfan2005 @ Minor League Ball on Oct 8, 2005 11:27 PM EDT reply actions

re:

I believe that he gets his 10-5 rights on the 5th anniversary of the day he signed, I forgot when that was but I believe it was ealry to mid december, so there's still time.

by jspearlj1 on Oct 9, 2005 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions

White Sox

Rumor is Manny has said he'd like to play for Guillen.

by shaftr on Oct 9, 2005 12:09 AM EDT reply actions

Straight up trade are unreasonable but you think any thing even close to what you mentioned might be? Try again. There's going to need to be an All-Star involved. Not a prospect, an All-Star and I seriously doubt Epstein would be interested in Soriano.
Manny isn't going anywhere. We hear this every year. No one was willing to take him when he was placed on unconditionals, I doubt anyone will take him in a deal that would be good for th Sox and Theo won't make a bad deal just to move Manny.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 9, 2005 2:33 AM EDT reply actions

Manny

For Wright. Straight up.

Wright isn't Minaya's type of player, if you catch my drift.

By the way, Manny Ramirez is not hitting 700 HR. He's barely over 400.

by Klostrophobic on Oct 9, 2005 5:10 AM EDT reply actions

lol.

Funny stuff! Someone go prepare Omar's bomb shelter if he does that...

by MetfanBren on Oct 9, 2005 5:56 AM EDT up reply actions

that's extremely insulting...

... both to Minaya's integrity (I assume you're implying he prefers Latino players, to the degree that he would make trades that are incredibly stupid as long as they involved giving up a non-Latino to acquire a Latino), and to his intelligence (in case I didn't just make it clear, any semi-sensible Met GM would not even entertain a Manny/Wright trade for a moment.)

In a keeper Roto league with a salary cap, a player's value consists entirely of his performance vs. salary -- you'd rather have J.J. Hardy for $2 than Miguel Tejada for $50, because even though Tejada is the better player, he's overpaid at that salary, and you're not going to be able to get the most out of the $280 total you have to spend if you're paying Tejada $50. This is not quite how it works in real life, since there is no salary cap. But, since teams still do have a payroll number they'd like to stay under, it remains mostly true. Manny, as good as he is, is a slightly overpaid player. That means you're either trading him for another slightly overpaid player; a REALLY overpaid player and prospects; or, if you are getting a non-overpaid player for him, you're giving up something else on your end. I dunno why you would think you would be able to get great prospects, or non-overpaid great players, for him straight up. The only way you might get those things is if some GM makes a mistake, or doesn't care about payroll. Assuming rational actors, it doesn't happen.

Boston is best off keeping Manny, because 1) they can afford to overpay a few guys, and 2) the press and fans aren't going to buy this team salary structure stuff (especially when the team does so well financially), and will turn on the ownership viciously if the trade doesn't win them the World Series.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Oct 9, 2005 6:07 AM EDT up reply actions

minaya

does not have a very good track record for trades. look at his rather brief times with the expos. he basically got 1/2 a season of bartolo colon, 1/4 a season of cliff floyd, rhp sunny woo kim, rhp seung song, rhp el duque (who was injured), 1b jeff leifer (who was then released) and rhp rocky biddle for rhp justin wayne, rhp don levinski, of grady sizemore, lhp cliff lee and inf brandon phillips. that was all in a matter of months, too.

while i don't expect anyone who doesn't have a gun to their head to make a manny for david wright trade his past trades aren't ranked among the wisest of decisions.

his FA acquistions may bear more fruit though.

by vango on Oct 9, 2005 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions

Minaya

It's true, his trades while Expos GM were sometimes lacking BUT put it this way

He could not expand the team salary
He could not even bring up minor leaguers at the end of the season
MLB still wanted the expos to be competitive in order to make the team more attractive to sell

I really don't think it is fair to judge what he had to do for the Expos in relation to what his future may be with the Mets as GM

by thudean on Oct 9, 2005 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions

one really bad trade

gave up jason bay to get lou collier. i don't think that can be seen as a trade that was impacted by the expos unique situation. too bad the mets were too dumb to keep bay for themselves.

by DavidWrightismyGod on Oct 11, 2005 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions

Contraction and Such

As someone mentioned, Minaya didn't know that he would have any use for those minor leaguers. Yeah, they were bad trades, but I don't know if you can hold them against him.

He's also had a few good trades, too:

From Retrosheet:

- Traded Jim Brower and a player to be named later to San Francisco Giants in exchange
for Edwards Guzman, Livan Hernandez and cash; San Francisco Giants received Matt
Blank (April 30, 2003).

Traded Randy Choate to Arizona Diamondbacks in exchange for John Patterson.
Traded Scott Stewart to Cleveland Indians in exchange for Ryan Church and Maicer

Izturis.

He's made his fair share of bad moves, too, but I wouldn't say that he has a bad track record in trades...

by nygiants5811 on Oct 9, 2005 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions

4th possibility

There is also a fourth possiblity just as plausible as the three you cite, and that is acquiring a somewhat less talented, non-overpaid player. That is exactly what the Rangers got, for instance, for the somewhat overpaid ARod.

by BERSMR on Oct 9, 2005 6:39 AM EDT reply actions

wow

i couldn't disagree with this more.

alex rodriguez isn't overpaid. i'm sick of hearing that or seeing it in print. there's just nobody else like him. who else can you pretty much bet the farm will be within spitting distance of being the league's best hitter every year while playing gold-glove caliber defense at an important position? in a typical a-rod year you can expect he'll be worth about 11 or 12 wins over a replacement player. nobody else is like that. pujols comes closest, and he's at least a win worse on average; and pujols is seriously underpaid.

alfonso soriano, meanwhile, is overpaid. crazily overpaid, and it's only going to get worse as he goes into his final arbitration year. this is a guy who is a career .280/.320/.500 hitter--good, but not actually significantly above-average (when you consider how important OBP is), and his defense is terrible. and yet this is a guy who will be awarded over $10M in arbitration. this is for a guy who is A) the same age as a-rod, and B) worth 5 wins a year instead of 11-12. there is just no way you can argue that soriano at $12M is underpaid and a-rod at $25M is overpaid. 5-win players are just not that difficult to come by. 11-win players? there's only one.

texas made the worst trade i can remember when they dealt a-rod. i mean, miles worse than kazmir for zambrano. it's amazing the inability some teams have to identify the reasons they are not winning more. in the case of texas, how hard is it to realize, "it's the pitching, stupid!"

sorry for ranting.

by jpahk on Oct 9, 2005 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions

Overpaid

A-Rod is overpaid, so is Manny and so is Jeter. A-rod's contract was crippling the Rangers. "It's the pitching, Stupid..." hey Stupid, they couldn't afford to sign any pitching (or anything else) because of A-rod's cement galoshes contract.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 9, 2005 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions

That is BS

and BP did enough studies to show how much of a silly statement that was. It was not Arod's contract the crippled the Rangers but all the other bad contracts they used up the budget on.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen.

by Phil Gurnee on Oct 9, 2005 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Sure

Investing 20-25% of your assets in ONE player isn't a BAD (sorry, Bad is a poor choice of words, change that to TERRIBLE) idea. Gimme a break... No player is worth 25% of a payroll. NONE.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 9, 2005 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions

CrimsonLiederhosen

Still clueless I see.

BP did a study? I laught at BP! Who is BP? I'm bren and i know more then everyone!

signed: CrimsonLiederhosen

How about you give us all a break and explain to us why BP study was wrong.

by Josh @ Minor League Ball on Oct 9, 2005 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Don't

You have a welfare check to pick up?

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 9, 2005 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

They Couldn't Afford Pitching?

You mean that was some other team paying ridiculous sums for Chan Ho Park, Jay Powell, Uggie Urbina, Dave Burba, etc. etc. etc.?

Go ahead and shoot your mouth off, like it might kill the silence.

by ESiegrist on Oct 9, 2005 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions

That's OK

That's OK Jpahk. We're use to you beginning your post with "WOW" and proceeding to strongly disagree. That's your nature I guess.

A search on your posts will show that all you do is browse to find a post that you disagree with.

Why don't you try contributing an original thought?

Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

by Goodfella on Oct 9, 2005 8:43 AM EDT reply actions

i guess you're trying to start a flame war?

in which case your post doesn't really merit a response, but here you go.

please go ahead and do a search on my posts. i'm not ashamed of them. i wasn't real sure, so i went back and searched myself--about 25% of my posts are because i strongly disagreed with something posted by somebody else. i think this makes sense--when i see something that i really disagree with, i feel like posting my opposing viewpoint. when i see something that i agree with, i don't see the point of posting just to say "uh, yeah, same here." so it's a little weird to be accused of A) only posting when i disagree, and B) not having original thoughts.

the other 75% of things i've posted seem to be random thoughts on questions like "is brian stavisky any good," "what was craig hansen's debut like," "what's with the A's and ken macha," and "who is the RoY." i hate to disappoint, so don't go looking at those posts if you want to see somebody starting an argument.

the only other thing i'd like to say is that this is a pretty cool website, but it only takes a few mean-spirited ad hominem attacks to make it unpleasant for everybody to read it. so if people are upset when i disagree with them, i apologize (and i recognize that i can sometimes opine too strongly); but i never have anything bad to say about the posters themselves, and i'm a little disappointed to be the subject of a personal attack. let's try to keep the subject matter to baseball.

by jpahk on Oct 10, 2005 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions

You good

Don't worry about what others say or think.

by Josh @ Minor League Ball on Oct 10, 2005 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think they would trade him for prospects

They need major league pitching, both bullpen and rotation.

by jahs34 on Oct 9, 2005 11:05 AM EDT reply actions

mean dean and rational actors

We can assume rational actors, but their rational may still be ridiculous. History tells us a trade to the Mets is not entirely out of the realm of possibility because the Mets like to make a splash on the back pages and not necessarily for the betterment of the franchise. It's worth it to Minaya, if only because he values the positive publicity the New York press would give him.

My point is, a lot of baseball don't use a lot of logic in their decisions. Who on earth gives a 7 year contract to a 33 year old Kevin Brown?

by Sospiro0 on Oct 9, 2005 12:07 PM EDT reply actions

hee

Believe me, Wright for Manny would not garner "positive" publicity :)

I do understand your general point, but it's just hard to predict what a GM will do that is stupid. I could say the Mets are going to get Delmon Young for Kaz Matsui, and as much as I would love for that to happen, and as much as it COULD theoretically happen... discussing that trade is not going to be much of a conversation.

Manny for Beltran is slightly overpaid for slightly overpaid, so that would make sense; Manny for Cameron is slightly overpaid for fairly paid, so theoretically not a great trade for the Mets, but one they could afford to do since they do get the better player and have some money to spare. The Mets weren't throwing a guy like Milledge into that latter trade, though, and shouldn't have. I just don't think you can expect (and yeah, you might be pleasantly surprised, but "expect") people to give up a good contract for a bad contract. Manny e was released a couple years ago, and no one wanted him even if it meant giving up nothing other than agreeing to take on the contract. Nothing has really changed since then.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Oct 9, 2005 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

minaya would be roasted alive

for doing that trade. mean dean nails it on the head. wright is on the verge of being worshipped a la jeter. (more deservedly in my opinion, but check my username and take my opinion with a ton of salt.) as dumb as the ny media can be, they can't help but see the olly of trading a 22 year old on the verge of stardom for a 33 year old who is about to entire into the decline years of his career. obviously manny is still productive, but continuing this level of productivity is far from guaranteed. all that said, i don't think minaya would consider this trade, though i'm sure he will try to get manny some other way.

by DavidWrightismyGod on Oct 11, 2005 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions

Here's a question

Manny is getting up there in years. Is he athletic enough to prevent a drop off in the coming years? The Red Sox might be on to something--get as much as you can for Manny now while his worth his high. His best years are definitely behind him, which isn't to say he won't be great--just not Manny. Of course, the Red Sox don't seem to be keeping him on the block for all stars and prospects, it's more of a money thing. If they'd eat his contract, I'm sure they could get a handful of pretty darn good players.

by Sospiro0 on Oct 9, 2005 12:16 PM EDT reply actions

keep manny

I keep Manny. He is still an elite hitter. Maybe not a .350 hitter anymore, but he has hit 88 homers and posted a near 1000 ops both seasons. He hit in all 14 postseason games in 2004 and just had 2 homers in the 3 game series with the ChiSox.

The duration of the Manny contract was concerning to me when it was eight years. But there are only 3 years left and he's still batting at a very high level. I expect atleast 2 of those 3 years to be very good. If you get two great years and one injured subpar year from Manny I think you can live with that b/c in Beantown you are playing for championships and elite players are needed for that quest. Plus, the Redsox have incredible revenue from NESN. They can afford to have a few big contracts.

I'd rather pay $20 million to Manny and 300K to Youkilis than pay $9 million apiece for Huff and Mueller. To me, the $9 million veterans you can land via free agency (or a trade for Manny) are more likely to collapse than Manny is.

by natsfan2005 @ Minor League Ball on Oct 9, 2005 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Papi

Let us not forget how much Big Papi was being walked when Manny missed time. Would a Mike Cameron or Aubrey Huff-type batting 4th deter a team from pitching around Big Papi?

by natsfan2005 @ Minor League Ball on Oct 9, 2005 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Question

It's a valid question, how much will Manny's skills drop off.
Well, how much of Manny's skills are due to athleticism? Not much, I'd argue. He's basically an idiot savant of hitting. He sees the ball, he hits the ball. He's got 435 HR's, is it realistic to think he'll keep producing close to what he is now for 3, maybe 4 more years? Probably. Then you can count on him hanging around for another 2 years (because every player seems to hang on too long) so I think he could definitely hit 600 HR's which should easily put him in the top 10 all time.
I do think Manny is not going to suffer a major dropoff during the remainder of his contract. I also don't think the Sox really want to trade him either.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 9, 2005 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Soxs

Nah they don't want manny gone. Not like they didn't put him on irrevocable waivers or anything. And you think they would have to get an allstar back. lmao, they couldn't give the guy away 2 years ago. Do you even believe the stuff you post?

by Josh @ Minor League Ball on Oct 9, 2005 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions

waivers

I thought they put him on waivers 1 world championship, 1 W.S. MVP, 88 homers and 174 RBI ago. Are we supposed to think that the desire to move him now is just every bit as strong as it was then?

I believe Manny was a bigger payroll risk at that point when he had five years left. With just 3 years left I'd hold onto him for reason's I've outlined earlier in the thread. I bet most of the Redsox brass feels the same.

by natsfan2005 @ Minor League Ball on Oct 9, 2005 3:53 PM EDT reply actions

manny

I did say 2 years ago right?

What about manny's desire to leave? Is that the same as it was 2 years ago? Manny doesn't like it in Boston, and the brass has to figure out if the team is better off without him. Team failed to reach its goal this year, so changes will be made.

They also have to take into account that he will have 10/5 rights real soon. Once that happens they are damn near locked into 57 million over 3 years! Thats a lot of loot for a guy that doesn't want to be there.

IMO Boston's desire might be more today then it was 2 years ago knowing that Manny is going to have veto rights soon. Think about it, Bostons options are about to be one team. Not a situation any GM/owner wants to be in.

There is no doubting manny as a hitter. But how much energy is wasted trying to make a guy that doesn't want to be there happy? What kind of toll does it take on a team? How many times do they want to deal with the Manny wants out questions? Is it worth 57 million? Sooner or later the negatives out way the positives and you move the guy.

by Josh @ Minor League Ball on Oct 9, 2005 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

What Manny Wants...

I know he's said he's unhappy about the attention he gets from the media, no privacy, etc. etc., but does that really mean he doesn't want to be there? Manny probably wants to walk on the moon too, but the Red Sox aren't exactly going out of their way to get him in space.

My point is that Manny, no matter where he wants to be, is continuing to put up pretty fearsome numbers, attitude, lackluster defense and general unpredictability aside.

The question is not whether Manny's attitude is worth 57 million. It is whether his production at the plate and his protection of Papi are worth 57 million over the next three years. And if you think about it, I don't think there's any other contract out there that you could trade Manny for and still keep anything resembling the protection and offense that Manny represents.

I think the Sox would trade him if the right deal came along, but I can't imagine any kind of deal, even between the Mets and the Sox, that would satisfy both sides. Cameron? Beltran? Does either of them seem like one of the best pure hitters in the past 25 years? If you're the Red Sox, would you pay to lose up to 15 HR, a couple of hundred points in SLG and reduced numbers from Ortiz?

Is Manny kind of a bonehead? Yeah sure. But he's still one of the top 5 hitters in the AL, and likely will stay in the top 10 for a couple of years.

I think that no matter what, we have to remember that Manny plays the game like a kid. Sure, he's kid with enormous talent, but his approach has always been a little juvenile. And I'd take his immaturity anyday over someone, for example, Gary Sheffield, who is complete jackass.

by sasquatch83 on Oct 9, 2005 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh and

Speaking of immaturity, could we cut the name calling? I know discussions can get a little heated... but cmon guys, we're all just enjoying ourselves here, yeah?

by sasquatch83 on Oct 9, 2005 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Manny is worth all that

"how much energy is wasted trying to make a guy that doesn't want to be there happy? What kind of toll does it take on a team? How many times do they want to deal with the Manny wants out questions? Is it worth 57 million? Sooner or later the negatives out way the positives and you move the guy."

Manny wanted out before the trading deadline this year. Even so, he produced big time for Red Sox down the stretch. I dont think they would even be in the Playoffs without Manny this year. Obviously, the so-called distraction had minimal effect on them.

If you want to talk about distraction, how much distraction does the Boston media have on the red sox players, particularly Manny? If distraction is really such a big factor, which I dont think it is numerically proven, how much better will Manny be when he goes to a town where the media just leaves him along?

I find it ironic that you continue to cite BP and Bill James' statistical analysis while resorting to unscientific nitpickings of somebody's attitude when it is not numerically proven, only to satisfy your point of view. However, it doesnt strengthen your argument at all.

by Bobo2 on Oct 10, 2005 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions

bill james and bp

"I find it ironic that you continue to cite BP and Bill James' statistical analysis while resorting to unscientific nitpickings of somebody's attitude when it is not numerically proven, only to satisfy your point of view. However, it doesnt strengthen your argument at all."

Wasn't me who posted either bill james, or bp facts.

My post also didn't talk about the effect on Manny' numbers. I was talking about the effect manny has on others. I would think the gm/owner would be more worried about the team, then one player.

Sorry Bobo.

by Josh @ Minor League Ball on Oct 10, 2005 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions

Manny Arod are very close in Win Shares

The top 5 major leaguer in WinShares for 2005 taken both hitting and defense into consideration are Pujols, Arod, Derek Lee, Brian Giles, and Manny Ramirez. http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php

I dont think Manny wants to be traded to NYMets despite all the rumours. Whitesox seems like a more logical destination for Manny at this point of his career, when he has his career numbers on his mind.

by Bobo2 on Oct 10, 2005 9:30 AM EDT reply actions

Whitesox

Would Guillen really give Manny the coddling he needs? A smart manager needs too, but Guillen has proven that the most prominent part of his personality is in-your-face mixture of honesty and cockiness.

by natsfan2005 @ Minor League Ball on Oct 10, 2005 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Manny and Ozzie?

That's a ticket I want to get. Primetime in Vegas, HBO will have the rights.

3Rivers, United League of Moderate Gamers | Writer, Minor Details | Writer, Independent Thinking

by rockies73 on Oct 10, 2005 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions

Bug Hurt

I agree. Ozzie did not coddle the Big Frank, but instead went to the media and bashed. I don't think Manny would respond well.

by count sutton on Oct 10, 2005 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Ozzie and Manny rumours

Ozzie and Manny are certainly two distinguished personalities. It is all speculation at this point whether Ozzie and Manny will fight once they're in the same dugout. The rumour floating around is that Manny has said he wanted to play for Whitesox, so obviously Manny is fond of Ozzie to a certain degree atleast. Their guesses are as good as yours.

As far as attitudes and personality clashes being a problem, Manny has always produced on the field despite all the distractions and talks about how he feuds with the media, etc. Thats why Manny Ramirez is one of the most consistent sluggers in the league right now having posted OPS north of 1.000 for the past six years straight with a career OPS of 1.008. His OPS is off his career mark by only 0.020 this year but it is still good for 45 homers and 144 RBIs. Manny is used to distractions, especially after dealing with the Boston media.

The bottom line is, it is just not logical for Manny to go to a hitter unfriendly ballpark at this point of his career, especially with his 10/5 rights. Thus, I dont think the NYMets is a choice Manny wants, unless you want to blow the whole Minaya and latin player recruitment movement way out of loop.

by Bobo2 on Oct 10, 2005 6:28 PM EDT reply actions

Speculation

So all this speculation... but who are the white sox going to send to the Red Sox for Manny? I'm not sure the White Sox have the resources to acquire (or pay?) Manny. They don't have a single player making $10M, their total salary this year was $75M. The Red Sox I can all but guarantee aren't going to pay any of Manny's contract if he's dealt and how much do you think Theo is going to want to deal Manny to the team that just bounced his out of the playoffs?
Manny IS overpaid, but he's also one of the most dangerous hitters in baseball and the Sox need his protection in the lineup for Ortiz.
Manny will be a Red Sox still come opening day.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 11, 2005 9:30 AM EDT reply actions