Figgins

by cronie on Oct 3, 2005 1:36 PM EDT

I just wanted to give 2005 stolen base king Chone Figgins some love. I know Figgins isn't the "perfect" prototypical leadoff hitter. He strikes out too much and doesn't walk enough. But the guy is arguably the most exciting player in the league to watch. He steals bases, turns doubles into triples, and has a fantastic glove, especially at third base. His ability to play anywhere in the field makes one of the most valuable players in the game. The numbers don't quite tell the whole story on Chone Figgins, even though they're still pretty good.

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It's great to hear people mispronounce his name when it's just pronounced "shawn." Someone on Fox Sports Radio yesterday pronounced his name "Ch-O-Nay". He made it sound like pig latin, as in "Ixnay on the chonay".

I have seen Chone make a few bad plays in the field, but by and large, his reputation as an uber-utility guy is pretty well deserved.

by sasquatch83 on Oct 3, 2005 2:04 PM EDT reply actions

on behalf of red sox fans everywhere...

...I'd like to extend my heart felt gratitude towards Figgins for his deer-in-the-headlights performance in the 2004 ALDS.

by LeftyTG on Oct 3, 2005 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions

As a Sox fan

Figgins scared the hell out of me, he always seemed to find a way to hurt the Sox (among many other teams). The Angels would do themselves well to sign him LT because if he ever hits the market teams will be all over him, including, hopefully, the Sox. There's always room on any team's roster for a guy with his versatility and skills.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 3, 2005 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions

I was just being sarcastic

I didn't mean to suggest I didn't like Figgins as a player. Certainly 3 games last year isn't enough to ignore the body of his work, and I feel his flexibility and skill set would make him an asset on most any roster. That being said, I've never seen a player look/seem more jittery and scared than Figgins last year in the ALDS. I'd hope and expect a performance this time around.

by LeftyTG on Oct 4, 2005 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Ciriticism

I wasn't criticising your comment, I too am grateful for the big 2 for 14 he put up last season. And while 3 games may not seem like enough to overshadow a career, let's not forget that one single play can make (Dave Roberts) or ruin (Bill Buckner) a guy's career.
Let's hope he manages to do better against the Yankees this ALDS...

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 4, 2005 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Amen!

for the record, i was referring to his defense, as he made an error early in the series and looked/acted terrified on every play thereafter

by LeftyTG on Oct 4, 2005 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Run Production

This is where "Moneyball" theory breaks down. The kid scored 113 runs this year. You just can't tell me that is all because of the players behind him in the lineup. Figgins made it happen with his speed. It's not only SB's either. It's taking the extra base. Also, .351 isn't that bad OBP for a leadoff hitter. Combine a decent OBP and his kind of speed and you've got a run producer at the top of the order.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 3, 2005 2:07 PM EDT reply actions

huh?

Moneyball never said that a .352 OBP was unacceptable for a leadoff hitter, or that you shouldn't steal bases if you can make it 80% of the time.

Figgins is a good player, much better than I ever would have thought. I love these "supersub" type player. At least if the guy can hit (as opposed to Joe McEwing), it's a very powerful strategy that lets you both give a full-time job to someone who is better than some of your starters, and rest your regulars. Especially now that many teams only carry 13 hitters, I think we should be seeing more of it than we do.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Oct 3, 2005 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Run Production

I thought it was us Moneyball guys that liked to start all the arguments?

by JeffersJV on Oct 3, 2005 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Figgins is awesome

He has basically done the same thing from a production standpoint for 3 years running.

He played 72 games in the OF, 56 at 3B, 42 at 2B, 4 at SS and 7 at DH - wait that is 181 games - amazing. In all seriousness - in addition to his versatility prior to making the line-up - he can also move around to allow for double switches and pinch hit match-ups every day he is in the line-up.

He made $390,000 this year - how much longer should Anaheim wait to lock him up to something a little long term?

by slickwdb on Oct 3, 2005 3:33 PM EDT reply actions

I meant Runs as a stat

A lot of stathead types scoff at Runs and RBI's as stats because, supposedly, they reflect what other players do, not the individual in question. In this case, 113 runs scored tells you just about everything you need to know about Chone Figgins. He makes a huge contribution to his team that goes way beyond the OBP/SLG%/OPS.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 3, 2005 3:34 PM EDT reply actions

113 runs

...mostly tells you about where he hit in the lineup -- first and occasionally second. It also tells you something about how well he got on base, and how good the hitters were behind him.

Or do you think he would have scored just as many runs hitting eighth?

Go ahead and shoot your mouth off, like it might kill the silence.

by ESiegrist on Oct 3, 2005 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions

To score........

You have to be in scoring position and in most cases that means getting to 2nd or 3rd.

Of lead-off hitters in baseball - Damon scored 117, Rollins 114 and everyone else had less including Derek Jeter.

Out of the above mentioned players:

Anaheim - 2 guys in the top 40 for RBI's with 204
Boston - 2 guys in the top 40 for RBI's with 292
Philly - 3 guys in the top 40 for RBI's with 324
NY - 4 guys in the top 40 with some 500 rbis

Even the Mets had 2 RBI guys as strong as the Angels.

Just because you hit lead-off - doesn't mean you score runs - you have to put yourself in a position to be driven in which is what Figgins does with 35 extra base hits and 62 stolen bases. He can manufacture himself a run with a single and the next 2 guys grounding out.

by slickwdb on Oct 3, 2005 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions

i think this article is enlightening

although it is not 100% on point. its addresses rbi, a stat which is commonly seen as being an indicator of a "run producer" in the same manner that runs are viewed.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/egaitarianism-and-the-rbi/

by DavidWrightismyGod on Oct 3, 2005 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Huh

So you do think he could have scored 100+ runs batting eighth then?

Go ahead and shoot your mouth off, like it might kill the silence.

by ESiegrist on Oct 3, 2005 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions

no

i suppose i just wanted to show that the myth of "run producers" is just that, a myth. why did tejeda have so many rbi on 2004? b/c of the amount of runners he had on in front of him to a large degree. i took the figgins argument to be that figgins can control his runs scored b/c of some special talent he has, not b/c of the amount of times he is on base and the batters behind him. obviously batting 1st or 2nd affects the amount of times he is on base b/c he gets more ab's and batting in front of most likely the two to three best hitters on the team will increase his chances of scoring as well. so no, i am NOT saying that he would score 100+ runs out of the 8 slot.

by DavidWrightismyGod on Oct 3, 2005 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions

re

I believe he could score 100 runs hitting 8th on the Angels. If he hit 8th he'd most likely have Rivera (9th), Kennedy (1st), and Cabrera (2nd) hitting behind him. All three do an excellent job of putting the ball in play (Rivera 44 K's, Kennedy 64 K's, Cabrera 50 K's), so this could prove to be just as lethal as Figgins atop the order as it would create hit and run scenerio's galore and would create more small ball situations than what is called on while he hits leadoff with Vlad and Anderson behind him. Figgins gets on base and then scores on a hit-and-run or scores after he steals 2nd base and the next two contact hitters ground out. Figgins creates offense all by himself

by ScottAZ on Oct 3, 2005 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Figgy- Cont.

Figgy had the 4'th most runs scored of all leadoff hitters. Here's the list with OBP's.

Jeter- 122, .389
Damon- 117, .366
Rollins- 115, .338
Figgins- 113, .352
Suzuki- 111, .350.

Furcal was next at 100.

Figgy is a very good leadoff hitter and run scorer. I guess 113 isn't quite as awesome as I thought, though. I guess I'm just so used to crappy leadoff hitters on the Giants, 113 looks pretty awesome

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 3, 2005 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Not to be nitpicky...

...but I believe Jeter scored more at 122.

by JeffersJV on Oct 3, 2005 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Correct

The stat sort I used for some reason did not put Jeter at the top.

by slickwdb on Oct 4, 2005 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Was it BA's?

Because they have an anti-Yankee bias and that's just the kind of sneaky thing they'd do.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Oct 4, 2005 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Foxsports

I may have just missed it due to my Yankee bias - lol.

by slickwdb on Oct 5, 2005 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree to some extent

But Runs Created takes OBP and SBs into account. I still think that stat would be more accurate in measuring his overall value. Actual Runs scored does not say much. If I'm on third and someone grounds out to second to allow me to score, that other person still had to contribute.

Yes, Figgins does things that help. His speed on the basepaths is an asset and so is the fact that he can play many positions.

It may just be a philosophical difference, but I think there are better stats out there than Runs and RBIs. I think these are team stats.

by count sutton on Oct 3, 2005 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions