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Thoughts on Luis Rivas


Not as good as he should be

Thoughts on Luis Rivas

Luis Rivas is one of the most frustrating players in Twins history. Handed a regular job in 2001 at the age of 21, he never developed beyond where he was at the beginning of his major league career, even regressing in some ways. The Twins finally pulled the plug this year, and he split '05 between the major league team and Triple-A. He was released this month, and it is unclear where he will end up in '06.

First, some history.

Rivas was signed as a free agent out of Venezuela in 1995. He made his pro debut in 1996, hitting .259 in the rookie level Gulf Coast League. But he was only 16 years old. The next year, at age 17, he hit .239/.300/.332 in the Midwest League, with 28 steals. But he was extremely young to be playing full-season ball, and was already impressing scouts with his defensive skills.

In 1998, rumors started cropping up about his age. Usually, age-related-rumors say that a player is older than listed, but in Rivas case the rumors were that he was younger than listed, which made his performance all the more impressive.

Rivas played in the Florida State League in '98 at age 18, hitting .281 with a .374 SLG. Again, his raw numbers weren't that hot, but given his age and physical tools, scouts were impressed. He played Double-A in '99 and '00, not racking up terrific numbers, but showing flashy glovework. He entered 2001 as the Twins regular second baseman, hitting .266/.319/.362 at age 21.

Given a normal age curve, Rivas could have, perhaps should have, developed into at least a solid regular and probably a star. Players who hold their own in the major leagues at age 21 usually turn into good (or great) players. But he never improved. He'd spike a touch of power on occasion, but his batting average remained mired in the .250s, and his OBP never got higher than .319. He gained weight and his defense began to deteriorate. The Twins hinted, then eventually stated outright, that Rivas' work ethic wasn't what it should be. He lost his job this year, and is now out of the organization altogether.

So, what happened here?

From a sabermetric perspective, Rivas' minor league performance was never that good, and the only thing he had really going for him was age-relative-to-league. ARTL is a critical factor, but it's not everything. Rivas just never grew as a player; his major league numbers are very similar to his minor league numbers, actually a little better in some ways. But he's basically the same player at age 25 that he was at age 21, showing no skill growth at all. That's rather rare, actually, for a young player like this to completely stagnate in most phases of the game.

As for why this occurred, well, the complaints about his work ethic kept cropping up, especially the last two years. That probably has something to do with it. Organizational context may make a difference too. The Twins do a lot of things right, but they have never emphasized plate discipline, and that's been one of Rivas' key weaknesses. Perhaps another organization could have gotten more out of him. Perhaps not.

The Twins were certainly very patient with him. My guess is that his window of opportunity has closed, and that he'll spend the next ten years bouncing between Triple-A jobs and major league benches. He's the Venezuelan Warren Morris.

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this was my point of view
in the Andy Marte thread a few weeks back.  When ARTL is the main thing people point to, then there is something missing (and I'm not saying Marte's performance is on par with Rivas).  I cannot believe a guy like Rivas was ever called up to the big leagues.  He clearly wasn't ready, nor that good.

by So Cal Bob on Oct 11, 2005 4:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Rivas
At some point with Rivas, there has to be the realization that ARTL doesn't mean much by itself, and that Rivas never had all the tools that people claimed he had but wasn't using. He never had decent plate discipline and didn't get on base enough to use his speed. That combined with virtually no power (except in 2004, which caused an ugly drop in his OBP to .283) means a hitter with little value, especially with declining defense. The Twins took much to long to come to that realization, I think.

by AucklandGM on Oct 11, 2005 4:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

he fooled me
I wouldn't quite say Rivas "never had decent plate discipline."  He did walk 51 times in 2000.  In my Strat-O-Matic league, I figured 51 walks at the age of 20 could easily become 80 in his prime... and hell, even if it stayed around 50, that'd be ok if he hit for some average and could field.  So I drafted him with a #5 overall pick in the rookie draft.  Rivas' walk totals since then: 40, 21, 30, 13, 17.  So it hasn't solely been failure to develop into something greater; there has also been some plain old getting worse.

(BTW, some fella named Pujols went 24th in that draft.)

If you were to write off players based on very mediocre performances at very young ages, though, then you'd have written off guys like Robin Yount and Ivan Rodriguez.  It's still the right general principle; it just needs to be supplemented with other tools.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Oct 11, 2005 9:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He's still only 26.
And maybe even younger, so who knows? The journey isn't over. It's just begun.

That 2000 season was his only good season, as far as I can tell.

If ARTL means a lot, Jose Tabata is going to be the greatest baseball player ever. 800 OPS at age 16 in the GCL. Off topic, but I just wanted to mention it for some reason.

I never really saw Rivas play - what about him made people think he was going to be good? Did he project to have power? I see some impressive SB numbers in his ml career so he had speed, but how good was his defense? Baseball Prospectus says he was an awful defender in  553 MLB games at second base.

by Klostrophobic on Oct 12, 2005 3:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

a couple of thoughts
Rivas was the first big time prospect to come from the Twins' Venezualan academy and I think it led to a bit of a blind spot early on. Plus he was entering a situation where the big team needed middle infielders and he'd been moving quickly though the system. It was a good move to try him out (and Guzman too), but they were not good about following up to see if it worked.

I think some of his later complacency came from never having had to wait for anything early on. A lot of quick promotions before he'd mastered a level or consolidated his skills seems to have implied more satisfaction with accomplishments than expectation. In an effort to disabuse him of this notion the major league staff was rumored to have tried a lot of things. I always thought that the Jose Offerman signing in 03 was an attempt to bring in an established Latin player to set an example and approach him in ways that Gardy, Newman, etc could not.  It didn't seem to work.

 

by Cris E on Oct 19, 2005 3:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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